many questions about repairing/replacing stringers
- Thread starter carboncow
- Start date
OK, looks likes the cabot mixes with resin fine.
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1. We are going to buy from UScomposites. Their resin comes in thin and thick...but there is some warning about the thick not being idea for getting into cloth. Should we buy thick for doing vertical stringers and thing for everything else or will thin work for vertical with some patience and technique? Or should going with a faster dry...or just a few more drops of hardner. What is the best technique for vertical.
2. Can "peanut butter" be used about anywhere to fill a void? I have those small gaps we dug out near the edge of the sole where I need an inch of filler.
3. Liam, did you use tabing for deck work connecting to the sides or overlapping larger pieces...or just work with well cut larger pieces?
EDITED:
1. We are going to buy from UScomposites. Their resin comes in thin and thick...but there is some warning about the thick not being idea for getting into cloth. Should we buy thick for doing vertical stringers and thing for everything else or will thin work for vertical with some patience and technique? Or should going with a faster dry...or just a few more drops of hardner. What is the best technique for vertical.
2. Can "peanut butter" be used about anywhere to fill a void? I have those small gaps we dug out near the edge of the sole where I need an inch of filler.
3. Liam, did you use tabing for deck work connecting to the sides or overlapping larger pieces...or just work with well cut larger pieces?
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Dan,
We are going to use 3/4 AC too. We found all our bulkheads are mush too...so lots of cutting and reinstalling todo yet.
When you guys lay the 1708 on the deck...will you but the glass sheets to one another or will you over lap them...or some other technique? We are going to be using a textured paint when done so small imperfects will not bug us but we are still trying to figure out all the ways to terminate.
Ok...today was 10 hours of removing foam (yep 2 guys)...what a pain that was. We used a garden shovel (short and flat) and the trick was to only put it in a few inches and lift...larger chunks break this way. If you go to deep you cannot get it to break well. We then used short crow bars to bust up deeper and scrape the glass clean. We still have to run some wire brushes over to clean everything off were we'll retab.
Sadly the good foam will not come out easily but the wet stuff will seperate from the hull/glass easily. For us 70% of the foam was good and could have stayed but the right think todo was to take it out to see what was under it. Nothing was smelly or rottted...just a little wet in a few corners.
Who can tell us what is the best way to prep the old glass when tabbing over. I've seen grind, dewax and clean. Can someone talk more on the deway/cleaning solutions used?
The only think I can say at this point as I feel I know enough about building skill to really give this build a C-/+ below the deck. Like Liam said it's prob not as much about bad years but bad days. We found many holes in the stringer/bulkheads not sealed and rotted, poorly terminated glass that allowed wood to have direct access to water, poor and redundant bulkhead locations...just sloppy work everywhere. I sure hope they don't build boats like this anymore!
If you look at the photo 4992 where Evan is stilling I've drew a red line below an area that they put extra glass in the back area...not sure why but it seems to be a reinforcement on both sides. The problem it's pulled up...not really delaminated, just poorly done. From what we can tell it may very well be a water channel to the stringers.
Question: Can we just grind this down and glass over and be done? Or should it be cut out as much as posible...anyone seen this before?
Sadly the good foam will not come out easily but the wet stuff will seperate from the hull/glass easily. For us 70% of the foam was good and could have stayed but the right think todo was to take it out to see what was under it. Nothing was smelly or rottted...just a little wet in a few corners.
Who can tell us what is the best way to prep the old glass when tabbing over. I've seen grind, dewax and clean. Can someone talk more on the deway/cleaning solutions used?
The only think I can say at this point as I feel I know enough about building skill to really give this build a C-/+ below the deck. Like Liam said it's prob not as much about bad years but bad days. We found many holes in the stringer/bulkheads not sealed and rotted, poorly terminated glass that allowed wood to have direct access to water, poor and redundant bulkhead locations...just sloppy work everywhere. I sure hope they don't build boats like this anymore!
If you look at the photo 4992 where Evan is stilling I've drew a red line below an area that they put extra glass in the back area...not sure why but it seems to be a reinforcement on both sides. The problem it's pulled up...not really delaminated, just poorly done. From what we can tell it may very well be a water channel to the stringers.
Question: Can we just grind this down and glass over and be done? Or should it be cut out as much as posible...anyone seen this before?
Attachments
You want the thin resin for layup,you could use the thick for making thickened resin for filler but I would just and more cabosil to the thinner resin rather than ordering 2 different resins,yes you can fill those voids in the deck edge with the peanut butter,for larger holes think about adding some 1/4 chopped glass.
As you are seeing the orginal glass work was pretty shoddy,you should be able to do a way better job. I had the same glasswork peeling off in the bilge,but mine was not the original work,someone had redone mine in the past,i was able to just peel it all off. Get as much off as possible,gind and fill all the edges and spread in some slightly thickened resin. Once you have tabbed in the stringers I would lay a fresh layer of 1708 or CSM in the bilge for extra protection.
I have not installed my deck yet I am buried with yard work right now but there are 2 schools of thought on wether to overlap or not. Obviosly it will make a stronger more watertight joint but it will also create a raised area which will need more fairing.
You need to put a layer of CSM after the 1708 on the topside of the deck,this will stop the weave showing though and cut down on fairing.
You want to grind down your perimeter enough to allow for some 1708 to overlap and then the top layer of csm to overlap further without you work ending up raised compared to the original glass.
Also you will find 1708 does not work well on corners,it does not bend well,i found it best to chamfer the top of my stringers and limber holes to allow the 1708 to work better. Make a fillet of thickened resin on any insde corners that you are going to cover with 1708 as you will not get the 1708 into 90 degree corners either. Make the fillets when you are ready to lay the glass,that will make a stronger joint(wet on wet).
While you are in the bilge area,providing you transom is good you may want to cut a mousehole and fill with resin and 1/4 chopped strand around the garboard plug,then redrill for a new garboard plug,leave the outer layer of the transom glass in place and fill from the inside,this will increase the life of you transom.
As you are seeing the orginal glass work was pretty shoddy,you should be able to do a way better job. I had the same glasswork peeling off in the bilge,but mine was not the original work,someone had redone mine in the past,i was able to just peel it all off. Get as much off as possible,gind and fill all the edges and spread in some slightly thickened resin. Once you have tabbed in the stringers I would lay a fresh layer of 1708 or CSM in the bilge for extra protection.
I have not installed my deck yet I am buried with yard work right now but there are 2 schools of thought on wether to overlap or not. Obviosly it will make a stronger more watertight joint but it will also create a raised area which will need more fairing.
You need to put a layer of CSM after the 1708 on the topside of the deck,this will stop the weave showing though and cut down on fairing.
You want to grind down your perimeter enough to allow for some 1708 to overlap and then the top layer of csm to overlap further without you work ending up raised compared to the original glass.
Also you will find 1708 does not work well on corners,it does not bend well,i found it best to chamfer the top of my stringers and limber holes to allow the 1708 to work better. Make a fillet of thickened resin on any insde corners that you are going to cover with 1708 as you will not get the 1708 into 90 degree corners either. Make the fillets when you are ready to lay the glass,that will make a stronger joint(wet on wet).
While you are in the bilge area,providing you transom is good you may want to cut a mousehole and fill with resin and 1/4 chopped strand around the garboard plug,then redrill for a new garboard plug,leave the outer layer of the transom glass in place and fill from the inside,this will increase the life of you transom.
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Man you got the best info! I'm following your solid to the "mouse hold discussion".
A surveyor on site when we picked up the old boat give our transom a "solid" rating...but that is about all we found solid. Should we clean up where the transom meets the hull and re-tab that out too as well as the drain comment from you?
Where were these boats primarily made, what location?
Can one assume that other Wellcrafts (scarabs for example) have this terrible glasswork below the deck? I got a few buddies with 80s scarabs, one's a beautiful center console...I wonder how scared he'll be when he sees my photos!
Can one assume that other Wellcrafts (scarabs for example) have this terrible glasswork below the deck? I got a few buddies with 80s scarabs, one's a beautiful center console...I wonder how scared he'll be when he sees my photos!
phatdaddy
God
most were made in the sarasota plant. gotta remember, these hulls are 20 to 30 years old, plus the materials & techniques were still evolving.
when i cut out & replaced my deck, i bonded a 1/2 wooden tab to the underside of the lip like a shelf around the cavity. i then cut out a piece of 1/2 ply to fit the hole, then glassed over & faired to the original edge. this left the everything flush on the deck.
when i cut out & replaced my deck, i bonded a 1/2 wooden tab to the underside of the lip like a shelf around the cavity. i then cut out a piece of 1/2 ply to fit the hole, then glassed over & faired to the original edge. this left the everything flush on the deck.
bradford
God
More great posts! Like the idea about the garboard drain and Phatdaddy's idea about filling the edge of the deck.
I think a lot of the quality issues come down to Wellcrafts being a mass production boat. Having an '85 and breifly an '86 there were differences in quality of hardware. Some stainless parts on my '85 were the chrome zamak pot metal on the '86. The company I'm sure was shopping prices on things to keep costs down and I'm sure this carried over to glass work as well.
I like chevy/GMC trucks. Not too many 85 models that don't need some work,have had shoddy repairs from several previous owners, or would benefit from newer technology out there. Once in a great while you run across a low mileage, garage kept, and owned by an old man cream puff.
I think a lot of the quality issues come down to Wellcrafts being a mass production boat. Having an '85 and breifly an '86 there were differences in quality of hardware. Some stainless parts on my '85 were the chrome zamak pot metal on the '86. The company I'm sure was shopping prices on things to keep costs down and I'm sure this carried over to glass work as well.
I like chevy/GMC trucks. Not too many 85 models that don't need some work,have had shoddy repairs from several previous owners, or would benefit from newer technology out there. Once in a great while you run across a low mileage, garage kept, and owned by an old man cream puff.
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phatdaddy
God
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance.pdf
look through this book its short and has a lot of great ideas and techniques. you can pick up a hard copy for easy reference. it tends to promote west brand materials, but the ideas are universall
look through this book its short and has a lot of great ideas and techniques. you can pick up a hard copy for easy reference. it tends to promote west brand materials, but the ideas are universall
bradford
God
I copied to the Links section.
I like the fact that it's somewhat short and sweet. I have a few books on fiberglass repair and some can get a little wordy.
A great book that keeps it simple is Runabout Renovation by Jim Anderson. Got it at the library first before I bought it off Ebay for less than 10 bucks with shipping.
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Thanks for the info. I'm not questing the technique (ok may be the foam!) but when you are a DIY (like me) you can spot shoddy work, and I'm seeing some obvious corner cutting production and/or inexperience. I'd like to think by 1988 Wellcraft knew how to make a boat and especially this one!
One question on your deck technique. I think you are suggesting what we are going todo. We are discussing putting a lip around the civility of the sole too so the new sole sits in like a hatch. It appears th eold wood is 1/2 and we are going to go 5/8 or 3/4 and thus have it raised...and basically have a water channel around the permitter as we have cut back around the entire deck to 1.5" from the wall. Is this what you are explaining to other then a flush deck?
We have a leaning post, centerconsole and t-top and want more thickness in our wood. Do you think we are overkilling on thickness or does it sound like increasing makes sense with our deck variables?
Oh this is great!!
phatdaddy
God
i kept mine flush with the existing deck.
one trick i did learn, after you get your lip around the cavity, make a template out of thin strips of 2x4 cut edgewise (maybe 1/8 " thick) and fastened together with a hot glue gun. you can get a very exact fit and it transfers to your ply very easily. this will cut down on the voids between old deck & new
one trick i did learn, after you get your lip around the cavity, make a template out of thin strips of 2x4 cut edgewise (maybe 1/8 " thick) and fastened together with a hot glue gun. you can get a very exact fit and it transfers to your ply very easily. this will cut down on the voids between old deck & new
1708
1708 does not bend very good so I butted the 1708 and used CSM to bend around corners.
Today's accomplishments:
Spent all day glassing in stringers, took more time than I thought but I am happy with the results.
Inserted 3/4" A/C plywood (resin coated) into existing stringers and bulk heads (tops cut off, wood removed and cleaned)
Needed to add some putty filler on top as I left the plywood a little short. This allowed me to cap off the tops and make a nice finish.
Added 6" tab of 1708 to the bottoms of all stringers and bulk heads. Added 10" 1708 over top of the 6". Capped the tops of the stringers with CSM with to layers of 10"
This is all I got to today. I still need to add two layers of 10" CSM over top of the 1708 on the bottom.
I can't believe how strong my stringers are now.
I am almost ready for the floor which will be 3/4" A/C or 3/4" birch from Lowes. About the same price. Not sure if birch is much heaver or not.
I will be going over the 3/4" floor with two layers of CSM on both sides.
This should give the boat a very solid feeling.
I am decided not to add any foam. Leaving everything able to drain and breath.
1708 does not bend very good so I butted the 1708 and used CSM to bend around corners.
Today's accomplishments:
Spent all day glassing in stringers, took more time than I thought but I am happy with the results.
Inserted 3/4" A/C plywood (resin coated) into existing stringers and bulk heads (tops cut off, wood removed and cleaned)
Needed to add some putty filler on top as I left the plywood a little short. This allowed me to cap off the tops and make a nice finish.
Added 6" tab of 1708 to the bottoms of all stringers and bulk heads. Added 10" 1708 over top of the 6". Capped the tops of the stringers with CSM with to layers of 10"
This is all I got to today. I still need to add two layers of 10" CSM over top of the 1708 on the bottom.
I can't believe how strong my stringers are now.
I am almost ready for the floor which will be 3/4" A/C or 3/4" birch from Lowes. About the same price. Not sure if birch is much heaver or not.
I will be going over the 3/4" floor with two layers of CSM on both sides.
This should give the boat a very solid feeling.
I am decided not to add any foam. Leaving everything able to drain and breath.
You can also add 3/4 ply to the underside of the deck in any area you will be putting a seat,console etc,anywhere you need to screw into.
Although the birch has very few voids I have read it does not take resin well,the resin does not soak into the wood and create a good bond. I have not tested this myself though.
I considered this teqnique,but it seems the underside of the remaining perimeter is very uneven. How did you seal your tabs,did you just soak them in resin and then screw them from the top with thickened resin? thanks
phatdaddy
God
had to do some grinding on bottom side. the tabs were soaked with epoxy & then bonded to the lip with slightly thickened epoxy(to cut down on the dripping). held in place with c clamps until cured. no mechanical fasteners. i used epoxy only, not polyester. i think it has a stronger bond & is easier to work with. more consistent pot life & work time. the down side is you are then forced to paint deck, can't gel coat.