V21 Fuel Tank Removal - questions

Blue_Runner

Blue_Runner

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Back story - I have an occasional fuel restriction that sucks my primer ball flat. This happens intermittently maybe 1 - 2 times per year. The restriction is between the h2o separator and the fuel pickup inside the tank. I believe there is some debris inside the tank...possibly a plastic grocery bag (joking).

When and if it happens I can disconnect the fuel line from the h2o separator and blow the obstruction back into the tank, then all good.

So far I have:
1) removed, inspected pickup tube
2) pumped the tank last year - no smoking gun found
3) replaced all fuel lines tank to h2o and h2o sep to motor

Last trip out (this past Saturday) it happened in less than fair seas. I had trouble removing the (new) fuel line from the hose barb on the h2o sep. She was on there! Finally got it removed but I can't be dealing with this anymore b/c it just is not safe!!!!!

So unless you guys have other ideas I'm ready to cut the floor as the V21 does not have a removable hatch cover. Here again I break out Destroyers pics which have been invaluable to me (thanks again to D!!).

Notice on the middle round inspection hatch, while wellcraft did not make a removable hatch, they did make an indentation in the deck skin that is like a "cut here" pattern to access the fuel tank. So I'm guessing that is where I need to cut. My questions are what to cut it with and more importantly how to put it back! (top and bottom pix are inverted left to right)
photo7.jpg

photo6.jpg
 
Destroyer, you cut along the indented area right around the seat boxes....what did you cut your floor with?

Also wanted to add that the wood coring under my floor is all solid so I don't want to have to do any more cutting than I have to and do not want to have to put any type of durabek, rhino liner, coating of any kind on my deck as it is in good shape also.

I just want to take this tank out, get it cleaned out of whatever mystery obstruction is in there, and put the hatch cover back with minimal appearance issues.
 
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U sure the vent line to the tank is clear.

If you have to cut the deck, your gonna have to put cleats under the lip of the cut and reseal the old deck back in place. Should be glassed and the the deck repainted. I'd use a skill saw set 1/4 inch deeper than the deck.
 
Skill saw set to appropriate depth - can do that I think, my only concern was/is if enough clearance right there where the seat boxes are. It is right at 1.5 inches and I'm trying to stay in wellcrafts "cut here" lines, because I do not want to repaint my deck. Also would need to jigsaw the corners as not to overshoot the corners.

Cleats under lip, care to elaborate? Glass in some type of tabs from the underside? If it were beefy enough from the underside could I not just bed it in on the tabs with epoxy then 4200 or 5200 in wellcraft's "cut here" lines kinda like a removeable hatch cover?

This sux. Why the he!! isn't there a removeable hatch cover. !?#^@%$!
 
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I would second what Phat said about the vent line. Would really suck to cut the deck, do all that work, and have the same thing happen again. Try to see if you can get it to "run down hill" to the tank with as few dips as possible. I know that will be hard without direct access to the tank. They say you should have a loop in it towards the vent, but I disagree, the loop traps fuel when you top her off and helps cause all the gurgling when you fill up and then sprays you in the face. I remember you saying a few years ago about fueling up and telling everyone "Shut the F^&H up!!!", Def know what you mean.

If it still doesn't work it's probably the plastic foil seal off a jug of 2 stroke oil getting sucked into the pick up.

Wellcraft didn't put a hatch in because they were being cheapasses.
 
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Make sure the hose barb is not an anti-siphon type...they are crap.
You are sure the primer bulb is good and mounted correctly with arrow pointed up at motor?

The very last thing I would do is cut the deck. I doubt the tank is the problem.

Try cutting the pickup tube 1 inch. I can't imagine there being anything that big in there.


Oh, I had a problem with new tubing for a primer bulb. It had a clear liner that got pushed into the tubing by the hose barb. It blocked the line enough to prevent me from priming.
 
Hi Blue,
The fill vent could be a problem, but if you have checked it already,
Does one or both of your round inspection ports/hatches access the fuel sending unit, fill hose and vent hose connections to the tank? In destroyers pics they are all on one end of the tank. My 88 has a plastic tank and the sending unit and fill hoses are at opposite ends of the tank.
I think if I could access them, I would check those fill hoses for rubber crud inside,
Tipp the boat so the sending unit is at the low end, drain the tank, using the boats fuel line or a siphon hose. If you can, use up most of the fuel first.
remove the sending unit and using the sending units opening in the tank inspect and remove any debris. Any debris left could be swabbed out with a small rag tied onto a stick through the sending unit opening. You may find you don't have to remove the tank.
Do NOT use a shop vac to remove debris, as fumes drawn into the vac can ignite(ask me how I know).
If you have to open it up bigger, I would consider cutting two 14" x 14" or so, openings around the current openings for a couple aftermarket floor hatches (ebay). That will give you more working room. Much easier, cheaper, faster with fishing season upon us.
Best of luck,
Tom (13Echo70271)
 
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I used a combination of tools to cut the deck. As you can see in the pics several places I went further than the corners with the cuts. Those cuts were made using a circular saw. Then I wised up and started using my multi-tool (http://www.harborfreight.com/power-...iable-speed-oscillating-multi-tool-61219.html) to make the cuts into the corners. Much neater without the overcut of using just my circular saw for the cutting.

Yes, the middle round hatch is right over the fuel tank sending unit. Not really sure how much room you would have with them removed or out of the way, but it's not a bad idea to empty the tank as much as possible, remove the fuel lines and sending unit and try with a HAND pump to suck out whatever debris may be in the tank. Orientate the boat so that it's slopping towards the bow so any debris will naturally flow/move towards the pick up sending unit holes.

Finally, are you SURE that your vent line is clear? An insect or something could built a nest in there. I recall somebody in these forums a few years back had a similar problem with their ball collapsing and it turned out to be a mud wasp nest in the vent line. Take a electricians snake and run if from the tank to the vent cover and make sure it's clear before you go into something deeper. K.I.S.S. it first.
 
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mawshj

I do not know if you have the same valve where the hose to the engine hooks to the tank, but on my v20 (1983) that valve is a problem, the screen in it will fill with small (sand size) junk and a slight blow back will clean it. I removed all gas and sopped up all I could with rags thru gauge hole several times. finally got it cleaned up. ok now
 
I'm 99.9% sure it is not the vent because when it happens and I blow the fuel line back into the tank I can feel the obstruction and can feel it blow back into the tank.

I pumped the tank but did not do the swabbing with a rag on a stick. I did find some sand sized black specs presumably old fuel line particles but don't see how those would not make their way to the h2o sep and or inline filter?

I did remove the pickup and elbow - it is not anti-siphon. There is no screen on the end of the pickup. Pickup is like a piece of fuel line that lays on the bottom of the tank. Notice the pickup is on the front of the tank - it has to lay on the bottom of the tank to reach the back. When I took it out the pickup had a coiled up spring inside of it. I figured the spring was to 1) serve as a screen to block large debris and 2) keep the pickup from collapsing. I took it out but could not get it back in. The pickup seems rigid enough not to collapse and surely could not have collapsed with the spring inside....unless it was collapsing above the spring near the elbow.

I've been a whole season without this happening before. I have had it happen 3 times in a season. I've had it happen when the tank is full or near empty. I change my fuel water separator once per year and it seems to want to happen more when the fuel water separator is near needing replacement. However it was just replaced so there goes that theory.

We rode all the way out on Saturday 65 miles and it did not happen. Trolled all day and did not happen, then it happened on the way back to the hill and the weather had unexpectedly turned to sh!t - bad timing.

Thanks fellas. I really don't know what to do!
 
Blue_Runner said:
I'm 99.9% sure it is not the vent because when it happens and I blow the fuel line back into the tank I can feel the obstruction and can feel it blow back into the tank.
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Well, you can feel the obstruction move and stop blocking the air or fuel flow. But truthfully you cannot feel it blow back into the tank, you can just feel it move enough to clear the flow. If it's in your vent line and right near the top the vent cover could hold it in place enough so it wouldn't blow out and over time it could get sucked back in again. I realize we're grasping at straws here, but I'd make 100% sure it wasn't the vent line before I started pulling and cutting stuff apart. :head:
 
I'm not familiar with that setup. Mine has a pickup in the stern end of tank. It is a hard plastic tube reaching just short of the bottom of tank.

Your tube lays on the bottom of tank reaching all the way to the back? There are no baffles in the tank? Could the tube be sucking up against a wall randomly?

I know you can't test it because it is intermittent but if it were happening, opening the fuel filler cap would rule out the vent...with a big sucking sound...

you said the primer ball sucks in... like a deflated football? Brady-Belichek syndrome...move to New England, it will be fine....
 
IF it were the vent then just disconnecting the fuel line from the h2o sep would clear it up, no? Blowing the line out back into the tank "fixes" it. If it were the vent that should not fix it.......

Yea Skunk not your typical pickup tube for sure. It isn't sucking up against the side. I think that would be fairly obvious when I blow back through the fuel line. I have to blow pretty hard to clear it. Either it is collapsing or full of crud or both. This really blows....pun intended.

If I cut around the outline I think I'd need to add a lip around the edge to support the "hatch cover" when I put it back, right?

I can cut the deck, get the tank out and clean this piss out of it. I'm just not that up to speed on the glassing/epoxy aspect of putting it back. And I don't want to paint the deck. I like my original deck. :sigh:

I've been living with this for years. My biggest fear is it happening heading out a rough inlet or in between the rock jetties. Not a good situation. I check the ball before heading into those situations and keep a flat head screwdriver handy to disconnect the line for the blowing procedure JIC.

What I need is one of those cameras with a light that the doc runs down your throat to get inside that tank and look around!!!!!!!

p.s. could Tom Brady be hiding in my tank?
 
Blue_Runner said:
IF it were the vent then just disconnecting the fuel line from the h2o sep would clear it up, no?

If I cut around the outline I think I'd need to add a lip around the edge to support the "hatch cover" when I put it back, right?

I can cut the deck, get the tank out and clean this piss out of it. I'm just not that up to speed on the glassing/epoxy aspect of putting it back. And I don't want to paint the deck. I like my original deck. :sigh:

I've been living with this for years. My biggest fear is it happening heading out a rough inlet or in between the rock jetties. Not a good situation. I check the ball before heading into those situations and keep a flat head screwdriver handy to disconnect the line for the blowing procedure JIC.

What I need is one of those cameras with a light that the doc runs down your throat to get inside that tank and look around!!!!!!!

p.s. could Tom Brady be hiding in my tank?
Click to expand...

Agreed, opening the fuel filler hatch should clear the vacuum if it was in the vent line.

Yes, if you cut the deck you'll have to put some kind of support shelf or brackets along the underside of the deck so that when you lay the hatch back in it will have someplace to sit. I used scrap plywood roughly 4" wide. Used Liquid Nails type construction adhesive to glue it in place, then used several stainless screws to hold it for additional strength. Be sure to seal the wood before you put it in place so it doesn't rot.

Here you go for the camera. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...terproof+Inspection+Camera+Micro+USB&_sacat=0 They aren't really expensive. The one that I bought took less than 2 weeks to arrive from China. Just make sure that your phone will support it. (Must be an Android 4.0 or higher, capable of taking pictures with an detached camera). Will not work with an i-phone. My phone didn't support it, but it also works on a computer display so I just hooked it up to my notebook. Focal length from about 1 inch to infinity. adjustable light sourse built in. I used it to look inside some cylinders of an engine to make sure they weren't melted. Or, if you want to spend some extra bucks, you can get one from Harbor Freight that has it's own built in display. http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-61839.html

Lastly, keep a portable tank (3 or 6 gal size) filled with premix onboard with some sta-bil in it. Should last the whole year without spoiling, and if you ever get into one of those dangerous situations where you need to move in a hurry with the ball collapsed, just switch to the portable tank to get you moving quickly.
 
Blue_Runner said:
I did remove the pickup and elbow - it is not anti-siphon. There is no screen on the end of the pickup. Pickup is like a piece of fuel line that lays on the bottom of the tank. Notice the pickup is on the front of the tank - it has to lay on the bottom of the tank to reach the back. When I took it out the pickup had a coiled up spring inside of it. I figured the spring was to 1) serve as a screen to block large debris and 2) keep the pickup from collapsing. I took it out but could not get it back in. The pickup seems rigid enough not to collapse and surely could not have collapsed with the spring inside....unless it was collapsing above the spring near the elbow.
Click to expand...

Can you buy something like one of those trash pump suction hose strainers that screens out large debris? Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-2-Steel...039673?hash=item3f1f896cf9:g:O4YAAOSwll1Wz0AB Seems to me that even if one side gets blocked with whatever, the rest will still let gas flow. Kinda like the small filters they put on the ends of fuel lines lying inside the tanks in 2 cycle chain saws, weed eaters etc.
 
I thought the same thing Phat which is why I tried and tried to get the spring back in there. However, the issue was happening well before I ever removed the spring. Also, like I said the pickup is rigid enough I do not see how it could collapse.

I'd buy a new pickup with a spring in it...........if I knew where the heck to find this type of pickup tube. Land of Misfit Pickup Tube Store?
 
I'd be scared sending an electrical item into your fuel tank.

Could you just disconnect your pick up and put a new one in somehow? Seems like that would be the KISS way to do it.

Make one out of a piece of fuel line, put a nipple on the end to give it some weight, hose clamp some type of screen to the nipple. If you even want a screen.
 
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