Pipe_Dream
God
Excellent progress. And good decision on the tank.
Beginning my 1987 Fisherman 20 Restoration
- Thread starter Myfathersson
- Start date
Myfathersson
Member
Progress continues, although today was less progress than I wanted. I'll get to that.
First - This was the best tool for removing all the foam. This Fiskars shovel is all steel and STOUT. I originally bought this last spring to lay the low voltage cable for my landscape lighting. It has fantastic prying capacity. I went from taking baseball and softball size chunks out with the ice chipper and floor scraper, to taking out pumpkin sized chunks. Wish I had remembered this puppy sooner!
Since I determined all the stringers needed to be replaced I had to shore up the hull to prevent deformation. First it came off the trailer and supported by concrete blocks and cribbing, then I braced under the strakes which fall directly under most of the stringers.
It's simply a pair of 12' 2x4 sistered together with 2x4 uprights cut to length to rest atop a handful of 2x6 PT I had left in my lumber stock. The beam did have a split for an angle change - I matched the hull's form as closely as I could.
With the hull braced it was into the bunny suit to begin cutting the crap out.
The transom is a little wetter here than it was when the skin came off - I had just hosed down the area when I took this photo:
Here the hull is all cleaned. I am leaving the forward bulkhead and 2 short stringers for the moment. I haven't made a complete call on those yet - they are sound although...moist. I will probably remove but for the moment I wanted to keep a little form to the hull.
Transom skin peeled off relatively easy:
The port side stringer shell and all the bulkheads with their mushy rotten fly attracting cores:
I should have tested my respirator seal - I balked at shaving my beard. As a result today I have been coughing and sneezing like mad. Ordered a full face respirator and shaved off my beard. Today sucked and I didn't get much done aside from flaking the rest of the plywood off the transom down to where I will have to grind the remainder.
But I did get all my plywood. 5 sheets of 3/4" MDO Plywood and 3 sheets of 1/2" MDO Plywood - a $500 trip to Menards. But I am impressed with the quality of this stuff. They had Marine on the shelf for another $10 a sheet but it looked rather wavy so I stuck with my original plan to use the MDO.
Tomorrow I'll putz around with some low impact stuff like color matching my gelcoat and putting together a list of all the hardware I need to start thinking about ordering. Respirator is coming by 9pm tomorrow along with a new batch of Tyvek suits - love how they always tear out in the crotch...the absolute last place I want to have the FG itch manifest...
First - This was the best tool for removing all the foam. This Fiskars shovel is all steel and STOUT. I originally bought this last spring to lay the low voltage cable for my landscape lighting. It has fantastic prying capacity. I went from taking baseball and softball size chunks out with the ice chipper and floor scraper, to taking out pumpkin sized chunks. Wish I had remembered this puppy sooner!
Since I determined all the stringers needed to be replaced I had to shore up the hull to prevent deformation. First it came off the trailer and supported by concrete blocks and cribbing, then I braced under the strakes which fall directly under most of the stringers.
It's simply a pair of 12' 2x4 sistered together with 2x4 uprights cut to length to rest atop a handful of 2x6 PT I had left in my lumber stock. The beam did have a split for an angle change - I matched the hull's form as closely as I could.
With the hull braced it was into the bunny suit to begin cutting the crap out.
The transom is a little wetter here than it was when the skin came off - I had just hosed down the area when I took this photo:
Here the hull is all cleaned. I am leaving the forward bulkhead and 2 short stringers for the moment. I haven't made a complete call on those yet - they are sound although...moist. I will probably remove but for the moment I wanted to keep a little form to the hull.
Transom skin peeled off relatively easy:
The port side stringer shell and all the bulkheads with their mushy rotten fly attracting cores:
I should have tested my respirator seal - I balked at shaving my beard. As a result today I have been coughing and sneezing like mad. Ordered a full face respirator and shaved off my beard. Today sucked and I didn't get much done aside from flaking the rest of the plywood off the transom down to where I will have to grind the remainder.
But I did get all my plywood. 5 sheets of 3/4" MDO Plywood and 3 sheets of 1/2" MDO Plywood - a $500 trip to Menards. But I am impressed with the quality of this stuff. They had Marine on the shelf for another $10 a sheet but it looked rather wavy so I stuck with my original plan to use the MDO.
Tomorrow I'll putz around with some low impact stuff like color matching my gelcoat and putting together a list of all the hardware I need to start thinking about ordering. Respirator is coming by 9pm tomorrow along with a new batch of Tyvek suits - love how they always tear out in the crotch...the absolute last place I want to have the FG itch manifest...
Myfathersson
Member
DAMN it feels GOOD to start seeing the constructive side of this project and not just the destructive! Started on the ply sections for the transom today:
Once those were out of the way I prepped my stringer stock - I'm sawtooth joining like Slightly Twisted showed in his thread.
Peanut butter joints on the stringers are setting up overnight. Tomorrow it's back to grinding to get the rest of the stringer and bulkhead locations cleaned up. My second batch of grinding discs arrived this afternoon. After the grinding is done and I've washed the whole works down I'll set the first layer of the transom - hopefully tomorrow afternoon but Sunday morning most likely.
Once those were out of the way I prepped my stringer stock - I'm sawtooth joining like Slightly Twisted showed in his thread.
Peanut butter joints on the stringers are setting up overnight. Tomorrow it's back to grinding to get the rest of the stringer and bulkhead locations cleaned up. My second batch of grinding discs arrived this afternoon. After the grinding is done and I've washed the whole works down I'll set the first layer of the transom - hopefully tomorrow afternoon but Sunday morning most likely.
Myfathersson
Member
Funny you should mention that phatdaddy. I have been unhappy with how much offset there is between the drain hole and the keel as I've been spraying down the dust to save my shop vac, so my plan has been to redrill that more flush with the bilge, and when I do I plan to oversize it and pack the perimeter with a slurry of chopped strand and epoxy.
Myfathersson
Member
Today's post is light on pics as my hands were gloved and mixing/spreading thickened epoxy today. But I finished up all the grinding yesterday and today set to placing the first layer of the transom:
I think I'll grab some larger mixing tubs from Home Depot on the way home from work tomorrow. Mixing up the thickened epoxy in quart size tubs is a chore. It takes a lot more material than I anticipated to thicken up a batch. Time to do some math and see if I have enough Cabosil and milled fiber to do all the peanut buttering I have left to do.
Also need to order another 20 grinding discs to cover the grinding I'll have to do on the sole as well. For anyone embarking on a similar project a word of advice - don't think that 24 grit is too aggressive like I did before starting. After grinding out the hull, if there was a lower grit I'd jump on it. I went through 20 discs and I was pushing thru with discs that should have been swapped out much sooner. If I had 40 to do the hull grinding I would have used them all and had no regrets. This isn't a cheap endeavour and just like FG and resin, grinding discs are not a place to skimp if you enjoy your sanity.
I think I'll grab some larger mixing tubs from Home Depot on the way home from work tomorrow. Mixing up the thickened epoxy in quart size tubs is a chore. It takes a lot more material than I anticipated to thicken up a batch. Time to do some math and see if I have enough Cabosil and milled fiber to do all the peanut buttering I have left to do.
Also need to order another 20 grinding discs to cover the grinding I'll have to do on the sole as well. For anyone embarking on a similar project a word of advice - don't think that 24 grit is too aggressive like I did before starting. After grinding out the hull, if there was a lower grit I'd jump on it. I went through 20 discs and I was pushing thru with discs that should have been swapped out much sooner. If I had 40 to do the hull grinding I would have used them all and had no regrets. This isn't a cheap endeavour and just like FG and resin, grinding discs are not a place to skimp if you enjoy your sanity.
phatdaddy
God
Myfathersson
Member
That's the style I'm using. These specifically:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GHY5G3S
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GHY5G3S
Slightly_Twisted
Junior Member
Damn you’re moving along fast! Nice job! 
Myfathersson
Member
Damn you’re moving along fast! Nice job!
Things will slow down a little bit now Twist. Being on vacation last week and devoting most of that time to the project helped make some major progress happen
Got the final layer of the new transom core epoxied in place after work this evening:
Tomorrow evening I'll work on the gap filling and fillets. Climbing around the clamps wasn't the most attractive thing and frankly my legs are sore from climbing in and out over the last week. I ain't as young as I once was...
Myfathersson
Member
Yesterday evening I got the gaps filled and filleting in place on the transom. Went much smoother than I thought it might. I used a few PVC pipe fitting as my forms for the different radii that I was after. I may still add a little more filler at the strakes and chines to help the fabric flow better when I lay it this weekend.
This evening I cut the sheets of 1708 I'll cover the transom with. And in doing so I came to the realization that I ordered the wrong line item...instead of getting 50" wide biax I only ordered the 38" wide. Still works for the transom but is too narrow for how I'm planning to lay the stringers. So instead of the plan to place an order for 18oz roving for the back side of the sole, the sole will now get 1708 and the stringers will be getting 2 layers of 17oz Biax without mat. I'm sure that won't be my last hiccup of this adventure! I didn't get to working out the cuts to match the patterns as my frustration with the mis-order had me too worked up. Better to walk away for a day and come back refreshed and clear.
This evening I cut the sheets of 1708 I'll cover the transom with. And in doing so I came to the realization that I ordered the wrong line item...instead of getting 50" wide biax I only ordered the 38" wide. Still works for the transom but is too narrow for how I'm planning to lay the stringers. So instead of the plan to place an order for 18oz roving for the back side of the sole, the sole will now get 1708 and the stringers will be getting 2 layers of 17oz Biax without mat. I'm sure that won't be my last hiccup of this adventure! I didn't get to working out the cuts to match the patterns as my frustration with the mis-order had me too worked up. Better to walk away for a day and come back refreshed and clear.
Slightly_Twisted
Junior Member
Nice work getting the core in!
Ok about your new plan if i remember correctly you are using epoxy resin?
This whole opinion is based off that.
I’m NOT even close to a expert so take this with a grain of salt.
With epoxy there is no need to use 1708. You can just use 17oz biaxl. The 1708 soaks up to much resin and does not increase strength of the glass. The reason for this is 1708 is just 17oz biaxl stitched with 1.5 oz mat. The mat does almost zero for strength, but it does waterproof the core plus add thickness.
The 1708 will also not make the curve on the top of the stringer.
What I have picked up is this layer up with epoxy.
All wet on wet for chemical bond
1. Clean everything with a chemical solution.
2. Glue the stringer down PL or peanut butter. Add fillets
3. 1.5 oz mat to waterproof the make the curve on top
4. 6 inch 17 oz biaxl tape
5. 10 inch 17 oz biaxl tape
6. 12 to 16 inch 17oz biaxl tape enough to reach the top of the stringer and 4 to 6 inches overlap of the last tape on the hull side,
7. If fairing 1.5 mat over the area.
This is both sides of the stringer.
Someone Else will confirm if I’m right and or close!
Don’t just take my word for it!!!
Ok about your new plan if i remember correctly you are using epoxy resin?
This whole opinion is based off that.
I’m NOT even close to a expert so take this with a grain of salt.
With epoxy there is no need to use 1708. You can just use 17oz biaxl. The 1708 soaks up to much resin and does not increase strength of the glass. The reason for this is 1708 is just 17oz biaxl stitched with 1.5 oz mat. The mat does almost zero for strength, but it does waterproof the core plus add thickness.
The 1708 will also not make the curve on the top of the stringer.
What I have picked up is this layer up with epoxy.
All wet on wet for chemical bond
1. Clean everything with a chemical solution.
2. Glue the stringer down PL or peanut butter. Add fillets
3. 1.5 oz mat to waterproof the make the curve on top
4. 6 inch 17 oz biaxl tape
5. 10 inch 17 oz biaxl tape
6. 12 to 16 inch 17oz biaxl tape enough to reach the top of the stringer and 4 to 6 inches overlap of the last tape on the hull side,
7. If fairing 1.5 mat over the area.
This is both sides of the stringer.
Someone Else will confirm if I’m right and or close!
Don’t just take my word for it!!!
Myfathersson
Member
You are correct - I am using epoxy - US Composites, I've got 6 gallons of slow and a pending order for 13.3 gallons of medium along with my 50" biax. I knew I was going to have to implement some sort of solution to hold the radius at the top (I'm putting a 1/4" radius on the 3/4" boards) using 1708, switching to straight biax will make life a little easier there. I'll use the 1708 on the transom this weekend, and then on the sole, if I need to tab the edges of that layup to make the turn onto the sides of the sole I'm okay with that.
I'm not using tapes on my stringers. My plan from the start has been (2) 50" wide continuous wet on wet layups. That gives me a little over 8" tabbed onto the hull each side of the stringer for each layer. I am thinking I will break it down into 3 or 4 ft lengths and then stagger the location of joints on the second layer.
I'm not using tapes on my stringers. My plan from the start has been (2) 50" wide continuous wet on wet layups. That gives me a little over 8" tabbed onto the hull each side of the stringer for each layer. I am thinking I will break it down into 3 or 4 ft lengths and then stagger the location of joints on the second layer.
Keep the pics coming, great job. I have been thinking of doing this to my boat. Seems like a lot more work than I thought, but I don't know a lot about fiberglass. Ill just drop my boat off at your house. Im probably 14th in line, you should have it done by next spring right?
Myfathersson
Member
I won't lie, it's a LOT of work. And it isn't easy, but at the same time it isn't hard. This is the largest fiberglass project I've ever undertaken by a long shot (previously built a handful of fiberglass RC airboats with hardware store poly resin) but with the knowledge found here and other forums I think I've got a solid plan to achieve my goal. My pocketbook begs to differ but that's another matter LOL. Knowing the hours I've got in on this thus far I don't even want to fathom a guess at what a pro shop would charge. I'll be lucky to get my cap back on before winter here in the Ohio Valley. That's the goal right now.
I got the transom glassed on today. I'll post an update on that later when I'm on the couch with the laptop. A storm is rolling in right now. Gotta keep an eye on my tarp and make sure I don't get any water in the bilge since I don't have a drain at present!
Myfathersson
Member
Boat porn time! The last couple evenings I used the cardboard templates I made for the core to lay out my glass sheets and test fit them to have any nips and tucks ready to rock. Got up this morning after a poor night of sleep (nerves anticipating today) and I set up all my supplies. At roughly 26 sq ft per sheet of 1708 this was the biggest layup I've attempted to date. I wanted to make sure I had every possible supply close by so I checked and rechecked and tried to think of everything that could go wrong. Finally decided I had every conceivable base covered and I mixed up a batch of ketchup consistency epoxy to paint on the ground portions of the hull, painted it on and then mixed up 78oz of straight epoxy (US Composites Slow Laminating) and set to coating the transom and set in the first layer of 1708:
The glare is deceptive there, it really was much more translucent than the picture shows, as you'll see in the next photo after 2 layers. Once that was saturated I rolled it out with the fin roller and got all the voids to close up. I spent a LOT of time working bubbles out at the fillet but I got that figured out during the second layer:
Second layer in plus a 7 layer exterior patch to cover the original drain plug hole I filled the other night that I'm going to shift down slightly to minimize the lip to the bilge bottom. The faces that Wellcraft left exposed on the core are fully wrapped to the exterior - there will be no aluminum cap strip! I plan to do another wrap once the cap is back in place from the inside of the splashwell over to the face of the transom so what I did today doesn't wrap as far down the transom as it should. Sorry - storms were on their way in so after cleaning up and taking that last photo I covered her back up and didn't get a pic of the exterior of the transom - which is also now sporting a number of long epoxy drips that I didn't take the time to go back and remove. Thankfully I was planning that the transom was going to get a decent amount of gel repair so no harm beyond more sanding (yay). When I do the splash well wrap I'll grind down part of the wrap I did today and glass the whole shebang together. No water is getting in THIS core.
It rained pretty good for about 15 minutes right after I took the last tool inside and cracked open a Yeungling on the carport:
Cover held just fine, the storm was shorter than the last one we had. Still eager to get a bilge drain hole in place though.
Back to the fillet glassing. Since this was the first glass project I've tackled with an inside curve I learned something in the fin rolling. At first I was trying to work the excess and bubbles to the edge, but with the inside corner the bubble would push past then I'd end up pulling the glass back off the fillet from the roller pressure. By the second sheet I realized that all I needed to do was force the excess and bubbles into the fillet from each side until they passed thru the glass, which resulted in much quicker rolling of the second layer. I'm really happy with how it all turned out today. Since the cloth was only 38" wide instead of the 50" I had meant to order I shifted each pattern to give more/less coverage to the top and bottom. As a result I laid a handful of 6" wide by 18" long tabs across the bilge which I think resulted in a really stout connection, and a single extra strip of 6" across the top of each side of the transom. The 1708 behaved beautifully transitioning over the 1/4" radius I put on the face layer of the ply, and even nicer over the 1" radius I gave the fillets along the hull and the 13/16" radius at the top sides of the transom.
My confidence level for the stringers as a result of today's experience is markedly improved. I'm going to leave the hull alone for tomorrow and start stripping the sole. Monday evening I'll drill the pilot hole for my new bilge drain and seal up any core I expose so that Tuesday or Wednesday I can wash the cover and the hull again - the little bit of sanding I did to prep for laying today's glass has everything coated again and I'd rather not have to suit up to lay out my stringers!
The glare is deceptive there, it really was much more translucent than the picture shows, as you'll see in the next photo after 2 layers. Once that was saturated I rolled it out with the fin roller and got all the voids to close up. I spent a LOT of time working bubbles out at the fillet but I got that figured out during the second layer:
Second layer in plus a 7 layer exterior patch to cover the original drain plug hole I filled the other night that I'm going to shift down slightly to minimize the lip to the bilge bottom. The faces that Wellcraft left exposed on the core are fully wrapped to the exterior - there will be no aluminum cap strip! I plan to do another wrap once the cap is back in place from the inside of the splashwell over to the face of the transom so what I did today doesn't wrap as far down the transom as it should. Sorry - storms were on their way in so after cleaning up and taking that last photo I covered her back up and didn't get a pic of the exterior of the transom - which is also now sporting a number of long epoxy drips that I didn't take the time to go back and remove. Thankfully I was planning that the transom was going to get a decent amount of gel repair so no harm beyond more sanding (yay). When I do the splash well wrap I'll grind down part of the wrap I did today and glass the whole shebang together. No water is getting in THIS core.
It rained pretty good for about 15 minutes right after I took the last tool inside and cracked open a Yeungling on the carport:
Cover held just fine, the storm was shorter than the last one we had. Still eager to get a bilge drain hole in place though.
Back to the fillet glassing. Since this was the first glass project I've tackled with an inside curve I learned something in the fin rolling. At first I was trying to work the excess and bubbles to the edge, but with the inside corner the bubble would push past then I'd end up pulling the glass back off the fillet from the roller pressure. By the second sheet I realized that all I needed to do was force the excess and bubbles into the fillet from each side until they passed thru the glass, which resulted in much quicker rolling of the second layer. I'm really happy with how it all turned out today. Since the cloth was only 38" wide instead of the 50" I had meant to order I shifted each pattern to give more/less coverage to the top and bottom. As a result I laid a handful of 6" wide by 18" long tabs across the bilge which I think resulted in a really stout connection, and a single extra strip of 6" across the top of each side of the transom. The 1708 behaved beautifully transitioning over the 1/4" radius I put on the face layer of the ply, and even nicer over the 1" radius I gave the fillets along the hull and the 13/16" radius at the top sides of the transom.
My confidence level for the stringers as a result of today's experience is markedly improved. I'm going to leave the hull alone for tomorrow and start stripping the sole. Monday evening I'll drill the pilot hole for my new bilge drain and seal up any core I expose so that Tuesday or Wednesday I can wash the cover and the hull again - the little bit of sanding I did to prep for laying today's glass has everything coated again and I'd rather not have to suit up to lay out my stringers!
Myfathersson
Member
Well I didn't go outside at all on Sunday. It was just too hot to think about jumping in that bunny suit and cutting away glass. So I ventured downstairs into my nicely air conditioned workshop and prepped a PVC sleeve for the bilge drain and a "split ruler" to position the drain.
I took a piece of 1" PVC pipe and turned the outside diameter down to 1.240" on the lathe and then relieved the inside diameter a bit before finally pocketing one end to 28mm to match my new drain plug.
Then a scrap of plywood and 2 lengths of 2x4 to make 2 legs to gauge the location inside and outside of the hull, and a couple scraps of ply to provide a starter guide for my 1.25" forstner bit to start perpendicular to the exterior of the transom.
Got home from work this afternoon, laid out the desired location, drilled the hole and mixed up a batch of mayonnaise consistency epoxy, coated both the hole and the sleeve and tapped it in just proud of the exterior and made sure there was a good lip of excess epoxy on the inside. That can cure up till tomorrow evening when I will sand away the excess to be nicely flush and contoured with the inside glass and proceed to power washing the whole thing without worries that there are any exposed edges for moisture to take advantage of.
Since I had the forstner bits out I grabbed the 1.375" and cleaned up the thru hull holes. I ordered the new stainless thru hulls yesterday even though they'll sit until I have patched all the gelcoat and wet sanded and buffed the hull.
I also took some time to grab a chisel and remove the drips of epoxy. I'm not sure if it's the highly honed edge I keep on my chisels or that the gelcoat was still waxed and never abraded (or a combination of all of the above) but the epoxy came off really cleanly from where I didn't want it.
I took a piece of 1" PVC pipe and turned the outside diameter down to 1.240" on the lathe and then relieved the inside diameter a bit before finally pocketing one end to 28mm to match my new drain plug.
Then a scrap of plywood and 2 lengths of 2x4 to make 2 legs to gauge the location inside and outside of the hull, and a couple scraps of ply to provide a starter guide for my 1.25" forstner bit to start perpendicular to the exterior of the transom.
Got home from work this afternoon, laid out the desired location, drilled the hole and mixed up a batch of mayonnaise consistency epoxy, coated both the hole and the sleeve and tapped it in just proud of the exterior and made sure there was a good lip of excess epoxy on the inside. That can cure up till tomorrow evening when I will sand away the excess to be nicely flush and contoured with the inside glass and proceed to power washing the whole thing without worries that there are any exposed edges for moisture to take advantage of.
Since I had the forstner bits out I grabbed the 1.375" and cleaned up the thru hull holes. I ordered the new stainless thru hulls yesterday even though they'll sit until I have patched all the gelcoat and wet sanded and buffed the hull.
I also took some time to grab a chisel and remove the drips of epoxy. I'm not sure if it's the highly honed edge I keep on my chisels or that the gelcoat was still waxed and never abraded (or a combination of all of the above) but the epoxy came off really cleanly from where I didn't want it.
Myfathersson
Member
Thanks Destroyer! Lots left to do!