Who was Harry Schoell?

B

bootster

New member
I thought that Ray Hunt designed the hull for the V20. I looked up the patent number and it seems that Harry Schoell was the guy who has the patent for the V20.

The patent number is 3117544. The link is here:

http://www.schoellmarine.com/innovations.htm

Look under "longitudinal steps hull".

Too much time on my hands...perhaps... ;)
 
The way I get it is that Hunt took Schoell's "longitudinal steps" and incorporated them into his overall design for the boat...I think...
 
I'm very suspicious of the whole schoell v20 - alim connection.  In my opinion Harry Schoell is an excellent boat historian/engineer that can identify unique designs.  He makes small mods to these designs and patents them.   This is not unusual for patents, but what I don't like is that Schoell claims to be some great inventor, when he really hasn't invented anything . . . in my mind he simply a fraudulent self promoter.  

Here's the skinny . . . as I see it.

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FACTS:

Schoell's Dad owned Alim (the company that first built the v20)  

Schoell was 18 years old when the patent for the strakes was filed in 1961.

Ray Hunt had these strakes on his 1958 "moppie" prototype in Newport, RI.

http://www.bertram31.com/ray_hunt.htm

moppie.jpg


Hunt loved to build prototypes. By 1958, a wooden deep-vee, complete with   lifting strakes and 24 degrees of deadrise, was turning heads in Newport, RI.

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Question:  Where did Harry Schoell get the idea for strakes?    

Drawings (for Moppie) appeared in a boating magazine early in 1958 as part of a story on the design.

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In his article:

http://www.schoellmarine.com/bio_files/page0001.htm

harry takes credit for the v20 design and boast about building a plug in a week (when he's 18 years old).  

This is total "BS" there is no friggin way in hell that any one person can build a 20ft plug in a week.  Teams of people can't even accomplish this.  

The only way it's possible to do this in a week . . .  would be to take a existing hull . . . and screw strakes to the bottom.  Then spend a week shaping, fairing and polishing them, so that they could pull a mold from the plug.  
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Don't even get me started on the Delta Conic Hull or the surface piercing prop.  Both these "inventions" were done way before Schoell.

Surface Piercing Prop - was a hickman design from the 20's

Hickman_SeaSled_2.jpg

This shaft from the hickman seasled turned a 24inch surface piercing prop.  


Delta Conic Hull -  was common unpatented design.

hull.jpg


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Hickman_SeaSled_4.jpg


Hey look at the steps on the bottom of the Hickman seasled ( that was in the 20's)

page02.jpg


This was Richard Coles airslot hull.  Check out the small step in the vee (this was in 1971)  

There were many other variations of this design.  I can dig up others that are much more pronounced that these 2 subtle ones.  
 
BS...I was lookin' at the Hunt site earlier and thinkin' about asking if anyone at Hunt KNEW the story of WHO actually designed the boat we know(and love) as the "V20"...think we'd get a viable response?...
 
Reel - How's this?


On Tue, 2002-11-12 at 16:43, Karen Petersen wrote:
> I forwarded your question to John Deknatel, the president of our firm,
> who responds: the V-20 was an early Ray Hunt design, originally built by
> Alim Corp. and then by Wellcraft and others, i.e. ChrisCraft.

> Regards,
> Karen Petersen

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John Deknatel worked with Ray Hunt since 1963, so I imagine he'd know better than anyone else . . . except for Schoell who claims that he designed and built the v20 himself in a week while coming up and patenting the lifting strake (all on the time/budget of an 18 years old).


Hmmmm . . . . who do you believe?
 
I believe Ray Hunt designed the Wellcraft V20...it says so in some of the literature in our archives that Wellcraft published...and being the wise designer he was, saw the tremendous advantage in "lifting steps" incorporated them into his design...Wellcraft, being the good business people they were at the time, LICENSED Schoell's patent(for which of course Schoell was paid and should have been), thus keeping everybody happy; Hunt, Schoell, Wellcraft and the individuals who were smart enough to go out and buy one of these boats... ;)...
 
Reel - what bothers me is that those lifting strakes that schoell patented are on Ray Hunt's Moppie prototype boat in 1958 . . . which is well before Schoell's patent was submitted in 1961.
 
BS...I hear you loud and clear, but if Hunt did not have "patent protection" on the strakes themselves, then Schoell(or anybody else) could patent them...and lookin' at the pics you've posted and seen elsewhere, lifting strakes and steps were being used by others prior to both Hunt and Schoell using them...then it's a matter of who got to the patent office first and consider this...did Hunt ever apply for patent protection on lifting strakes?...I think Schoell had a patent in place on the strakes prior to Hunt incorporating them into the design of the V20...that's why Schoell's patent# appears on the V20 Steplift mark, while Hunt is credited by Wellcraft as being the designer...

Think of it this way; the Wellcraft V20 designed by Raymond Hunt and features lifting strakes as patented by Harry Schoell...makes sense to me... :D...
 
This article offers a general explanation as to why hunt lost the patent for the Deep V (perhaps lifting strakes too) . . . seeing that they were on in the 1958 drawings that were published in Boating Magazine.


http://www.bertram31.com/ray_hunt.htm

Hunt shunned the accolades that started coming his way and, as a result, some people considered him standoffish, Deknatel recalled. Meanwhile, other boat companies copied the deep-vee, and Hunt was unable to patent his idea. Drawings had appeared in a boating magazine early in 1958 as part of a story on the design. Patent rules stipulated that a patent application must be filed within a year after the invention has been written about or used - and Hunt had missed the deadline.

A phase of unsuccessful patent infringement suits followed, in which the oversight proved his undoing, Deknatel recalled.
 
Reel - I think you're right. Hunt probably encouraged a budding 18 year old engineer to patent one of his designs, so that he could protect the rights for Alim to use them on the steplift ????

The strakes were a HUNT design. The drawings that appeared in boating magazine clearly show strakes. The strakes appear on the 1958 prototype boat. The strakes appear on Moppie in the 1960 Miami to Nassau race. (even moppie was built before the patent was filed). I imagine that strakes were part of Hunts v20 design too . . . but who the heck knows.

We do know that Hunt could not patent them b/c of some stipulation in the law . . . otherwise Hunt would have patented the Deep V.

moppie.jpg



Anyway I look at it . . . I still see Harry Schoell as a fraudulent self promoter . . . he is taking credit for a design that was never his. He just happens to have the patent for it . . cause his dad owned Alim and worked with Ray Hunt.


There's a lot more to this story . . . than we're hearing from Schoell.
 
So in the end, who gets credit? Or is this another one of those issues where everyone picks a side and one side screams "TASTES GREAT!!!" while the other side screams "LESS FILLING!!!". ;D ;D ;D

In the meantime hopefully I'll get some supplies this week and begin hacking away at my Hunt designed / Schoell patented V20!!! 8) Will post some picks of new evidence of rotten transom soon! (I took off the aluminum strip at the top of the transom....not good!)

By the way, I enjoyed the history lesson. Although it would be nice to be able to definitivly give credit to the right person for a great design that has stood the test of time, I'll settle for just having a great boat!
 
I saw a Contender in FL last week that sported THREE (3) 275 HP Verados.... :o 8)...apparently it has a LARGE fuel capacity... ::)...
 
He's another clip from www.crhunt.com where Richard Bertram recalls strakes on the bottom of Ray Hunts boat in July 1958.
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http://www.huntyachts.com/corp_testimonials.htm

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“Knifing through those six foot seas at thirty knots, this little 23 footer stopped every sailor in the fleet in their tracks. No one had ever seen power boat performance to approach it. I know I hadn’t.

“Before the preparatory gun sounded, I made a mental note to corner Ray after the race and get to the bottom of this amazing exhibition.

“I found that “getting to the bottom” was the right place to get for the answer. Ray explained that this new design was deep vee the entire length of the bottom. Other boats had had the vee bottoms before, of course, but the vee and the deadrise diminished to a flat, planing surface at the transom. (“Deadrise,” incidentally, is the angle the bottom makes with the horizontal.)

“Ray figured if he carried the deadrise and the vee clear to the transom, pounding would be practically eliminated. He also put longitudinal strakes on the bottom to give lift and throw spray out flat to keep the boat dry.

“He figured right. A demonstration ride the next day proved it. She ran straight and true, smoothing the seas cushion-soft. When we returned to the dock, we were as dry as when we left.

“I commissioned Ray to design a 31 footer for me.”


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http://www.huntyachts.com/corp_about_deepv_development.htm

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Many of Ray’s notes and sketches deal with variations of deadrise, loss of lift, addition of lift, and reduction of wetted area through the use of “lift strips.” The deep-vee which he evolved is a monohedron type - initially with no twist, and therefore with the total area of the planing bottom at a constant angle of attack (when then evolved into subtle changes (some twist) as the design optimized. It is truly amazing - and typical of Ray’s intuitive sense - that today, after so many attempts at a better deep-vee racing hull, and no doubt with various improvements, that Ray’s original 24-degree deadrise is still used. The essential design, in fact, has changed very little after decades of fine-tuning.
 
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