Very sad

[jeffmo]

Jeff...this is a discussion. No lies, no ill will, no right or wrong position. It is only by people talking and listening and observing that anyone learns anything. You are entitled to your opinion and you are just as entitled to to state it as much as anyone else. As long as you are not publically slandering anyone or lying you never have to worry about leaving the forums. Personally, I may not agree with everything you or other people state, but that doesn't mean you don't have the right and the obligation to state your opinions. Just as I'm sure that not everyone will agree with everything that I have an opinon about.

As to the subject at hand, if you look again at what I said, I said that it was a road that I really didn't want to go down but it was also the only reason that I could think of for the unions championing smaller class sizes. I'll stand by that comment until someone else can give me a reasonable explaination for wanting to reduce class sizes to 20-22 students per class, and also having one or two teachers aides in the same classroom as the teacher. I mean, wtf? 3 adults in one class to teach 20-22 kids?

BTW, don't, for a minute, think that I'm anti-union. Although I don't choose to be a part of one at this stage in my life, I used to work for the power and light company and was a member of the IBEW for 10+ years, and was a member of other unions before that. My own personal take on unions is that they can be a great source of protection for their members. Indeed, I think that at one time they were absolutely necessary in our culture. I also think that there are a lot of them that have abused their power over the years, and because of that they have hurt their standing in a lot of peoples eyes. Like everything else in this world, there are good and bad unions.

But this really isn't a discussion on the good or the bad of unions... it's a discussion about the children in our schools getting sub-standard educations and what we, as parents, think are possible solutions to that problem. Lets stick to that discussion in this thread and leave the union discussion to a different thread.

well,all i can go on is what i read.if the issue is brought up like i highlighted below,then i think that it definately WAS meant to bring unions into the issue.the statement implies that there is an ulterior motive toclass sizes.i just disagree and my main reason for that isn't because I am a union firefighter,it's because as the parent of a special needs child my wife and I have worked very closely with every one of his teachers and the school during his education.i've seen the problems the teachers face every day and in my honest opinion,the lack of parental involvement is one of the lager problems in our schools today:

"As much as I hate to go in this direction, the only thing that I can think of is the teachers union. Think about it.. if you have 500 students, and each class size is 35, then you need 14 teachers (union members paying dues) to teach those students. But if each class size is 20 students then you need 25 teachers to teach those same 500 students. A net gain of 11 union paying members making the teachers union that much richer. I'm not saying this is the only reason that teachers unions want smaller class sizes, but it certainly smells a little fishy to me that the single biggest voice in wanting smaller classes is also the one that stands to gain the most money from it. Just one more thing to think about."


And btw,no hard feelings whatsoever.i have discussed these issue MANY times over the last year with alot of people.it is what it is and sad to say,it's politics.(worst part of my job!)

 

[Destroyer]

well,all i can go on is what i read.if the issue is brought up like i highlighted below,then i think that it definately WAS meant to bring unions into the issue.the statement implies that there is an ulterior motive toclass sizes.i just disagree and my main reason for that isn't because I am a union firefighter,it's because as the parent of a special needs child my wife and I have worked very closely with every one of his teachers and the school during his education.i've seen the problems the teachers face every day and in my honest opinion,the lack of parental involvement is one of the lager problems in our schools today:

"As much as I hate to go in this direction, the only thing that I can think of is the teachers union. Think about it.. if you have 500 students, and each class size is 35, then you need 14 teachers (union members paying dues) to teach those students. But if each class size is 20 students then you need 25 teachers to teach those same 500 students. A net gain of 11 union paying members making the teachers union that much richer. I'm not saying this is the only reason that teachers unions want smaller class sizes, but it certainly smells a little fishy to me that the single biggest voice in wanting smaller classes is also the one that stands to gain the most money from it. Just one more thing to think about."


And btw,no hard feelings whatsoever.i have discussed these issue MANY times over the last year with alot of people.it is what it is and sad to say,it's politics.(worst part of my job!)

You should have highlighted the following words also

I'm not saying this is the only reason that teachers unions want smaller class sizes

I'll listen to any other reasonable reason that is put out on the table, but lacking one so far, I cannot help but think that what I said is pretty close to the truth. Also, as perviously discussed, I was (he's out of school now) the parent of a special needs child also, and, like you, I worked very closely with all of my sons teachers. This was not a comment about the teachers. By and large they were a group of very dedicated people. You're correct however, it was a comment about their union and was definetly meant to bring them into the discussion as one of a number of different reasons that are all contributing to the decline of our childrens education. Unions + politics = bad for our children. One only has to look at "no child left behind" to see that glaring truth. The teachers unions in Washington lobbied for that law harder than any other group. But there is a huge difference between a teacher and the union that rules him/her.

As for the class size. You cannot use Japanese education at 60 plus per class as a benchmark as to what works in American children. The culture is very different. Americans are independent minded and the children act that way, discipline problems and lack of focus. Not so in Japan. The Japanese children are taught to tow the line and the family unit is a strong part of their heritage.

Of course I can use it as a benchmark. The whole rest of the world does. That was my point exactly. Class size has NOTHING to do with how well an education a child does or does not receive. It has everything to do with, as you just said, "children are taught to toe the line and the family unit is a strong part of their heritage." Which brings us right back to one of the main reasons our children are not getting a good education... Namely, that we, as parents, and as citizens, are not doing our job of working as hard as we can to insure that our children learn in school. That includes community action, political action and parent-teacher interaction. As Jeffmo said, "parental involvement"

 

[jeffmo]

i think that any decline in a childs education is more directly linked to parent involvement than any other reason.
there have been programs implemented though that haven't worked.a good example is how in our state grade schoolers were taught how to spell in a different format than i was.they were taught to spell a word out phoenetically instead of the old way and alot of kids grades suffered because of it.when my daughter reached 7th grade she was kept off of the honor roll because of her spelling grade.ALOT of other kids had the same problem,parents recognized it and approached the school board to have it changed.
it was a flawed system and should have never been implemented over a system that had worked for generations.sometimes new and improved isn't.
as far as a union ruling it's members,i can't speak for a teachers union but the IAFF is made up of people who were/are firefighters and they work for their members and lobby for issues such as manning,equipment and other safety issues.
but now i will move away from this discussion because i would much rather discuss boating,fishing and anything other than work!

 

[lumberslinger178]

It would take me all day to type whats I'd like to say as I only use two fingers...lol

But all in all I have 3 kids all students of our public school system .. and I couldn't be more proud of them and what they have accomplished in the way of education ... they're up standing citizens smart polite and caring...
Ones an Occupational therapist ones going to school to be a physical therapist and the other is one hell of a Carpenter and a Gentleman......And my best friend.

 

[Destroyer]

It would take me all day to type whats I'd like to say as I only use two fingers...lol

But all in all I have 3 kids all students of our public school system .. and I couldn't be more proud of them and what they have accomplished in the way of education ... they're up standing citizens smart polite and caring...
Ones an Occupational therapist ones going to school to be a physical therapist and the other is one hell of a Carpenter and a Gentleman......And my best friend.

And it's all because they have a mom and dad that cared for them, coached them and took the time to work with them when they needed help in their schooling. Well done Lumber

 

[RidgeRunner]

I wrote- "You cannot use Japanese education at 60 plus per class as a benchmark as to what works in American children."

Destroyer said "Sure I can the rest of the world does"

I can assure you that the Japanese education system is neither a model nor consideration to anyone in the Polk County School system. Maybe the rest of the world uses it as a shining example of how it "Could be done" so a benchmark it is, but then reality sets in. It wouldn't work in the typical American classroom and doesn't work in any other society.
We are miles apart in parental obligation. They start the children young and stay on top of them. The entire family focus there is to educate their children. Non-conforming students live in shame in their society and are considered a disgrace. Here, it is acceptable and we go out of the way to study the WHY? We come up with all sorts of labels and excuses to justify the behavior and categorize. Some excuses are legitimate to be sure, medical conditions and the like, but behavioral issues should not be tolerated to the extent they are.

 

[Destroyer]

I wrote- "You cannot use Japanese education at 60 plus per class as a benchmark as to what works in American children."

Destroyer said "Sure I can the rest of the world does"

I can assure you that the Japanese education system is neither a model nor consideration to anyone in the Polk County School system. Maybe the rest of the world uses it as a shining example of how it "Could be done" so a benchmark it is, but then reality sets in. It wouldn't work in the typical American classroom and doesn't work in any other society.
We are miles apart in parental obligation. They start the children young and stay on top of them. The entire family focus there is to educate their children. Non-conforming students live in shame in their society and are considered a disgrace. Here, it is acceptable and we go out of the way to study the WHY? We come up with all sorts of labels and excuses to justify the behavior and categorize. Some excuses are legitimate to be sure, medical conditions and the like, but behavioral issues should not be tolerated to the extent they are.

Ridge, I completely agree with everything you said. You are 100% correct that the Japanese system would not work here, but I was not using that system as a model of how to do it, only the fact that they do, indeed, have classes filled with students. I'm afraid that you missed my point. My point was that class size has nothing to do with learning, rather it's how the class is motivated to learn. That's where parents, teachers, and indeed, society itself, comes into play. You can have a class of 100 students and if they are all motivated, they will learn. And conversely, you can have a class of 1 student, and if that child isn't properly motivated, he or she will learn nothing. See?

 

[RWilson2526]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/08/union-chief-with-over-300g-salary-on-voucher-debate-lifes-not-always-fair/

All said I believe that NJ's teachers union is good for the employees and good for the school system. This though is the only thing that I find disagreeable with our NJ teachers union.....do the head honchos really need to make 300K plus for the work they do??

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lary-on-voucher-debate-lifes-not-always-fair/

All said I believe that NJ's teachers union is good for the employees and good for the school system. This though is the only thing that I find disagreeable with our NJ teachers union.....do the head honchos really need to make 300K plus for the work they do??

Anothe good question is why do teachers in NJ start off at $46-70K a year whereas most any other state starts off at 30-35K a year? I realize teh cost of living in Jersey is high, but alot of this I feel is brought on by the unions demanding higher pay for everybody(the whole trickle down economics).

As for the origanal discussion, I personally feel that political correctness is destroying our educational system. Since this post has started, I have questioned my wife a bit(without her knowing why) on some of the things she has to deal with as well as classroom size. I know this will come off mean and heartless to many, but why are we mainstreaming children who have actual severe learning disabilities? There are kids in her classes that can't hardly read, and will probably never be able to hold a job other than a bag boy at a grocery store. Yet these kids are in the mainstream population, so EVERY kid in the district must learn at the slowest kids rate. This in turn causes the entire state to slow down, and then rewrite the tests and how they do things so they can keep the numbers showing that the educational system is working. I know that this isn't the only issue by a long shot, and lazy parents of the nintendo generation are largely to blame for much of this as well(if the nintendo generation is this bad, imagine how bad the latest ones will be that don't socialize except for facebook).

There is much blame to go around, but I feel that alot of it can be blamed on political correctness and the whole liberal agenda.

 

[RWilson2526]

I don't think its true that a whole class is brought down to the level of the least abled student. This is my wife's area of expertise as she is a School Pyschologist and is responsible for designing a classified students IEP. (Individualized Education Plan). Special needs children have any combination of aids, in class support, pull out support (go into a separate class room for their studies) and greatly modified curriculum and goals set to suit their needs and abilities. And the severely disabled ones are sent out of district to a school more geared towards special needs children. (at an expense of t) At least here the mainstreaming is more for the social benefits of the child and as far as I can tell the other students don't suffer from the presence of these children. You may be right that that is how it works in Florida but it certainly is not that way here.

And yes the pay scale in NJ is one of the best for teachers although we have never seen a NJ district with a starting salary of 70K it is the norm to be in the low to mid 40's. (all the pay scales are public information and my wife looks them up frequently) But the way I look at it is the problem lies with the states that pay $32000 for a person with 6 years of college like Phatdaddy's daughter.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I don't think its true that a whole class is brought down to the level of the least abled student. This is my wife's area of expertise as she is a School Pyschologist and is responsible for designing a classified students IEP. (Individualized Education Plan). Special needs children have any combination of aids, in class support, pull out support (go into a separate class room for their studies) and greatly modified curriculum and goals set to suit their needs and abilities. And the severely disabled ones are sent out of district to a school more geared towards special needs children. (at an expense of t) At least here the mainstreaming is more for the social benefits of the child and as far as I can tell the other students don't suffer from the presence of these children. You may be right that that is how it works in Florida but it certainly is not that way here.

And yes the pay scale in NJ is one of the best for teachers although we have never seen a NJ district with a starting salary of 70K it is the norm to be in the low to mid 40's. (all the pay scales are public information and my wife looks them up frequently) But the way I look at it is the problem lies with the states that pay $32000 for a person with 6 years of college like Phatdaddy's daughter.

My wifes cousin will be making $68K starting salary if he gets the job he is trying for next year after he graduates. I know this is on the high end, but even the starting salary in NJ is MUCh higher than waht most seasoned teachers make elsewhere. As for IEP's, my wife has to do them as she works with alot of special needs kids(in Fl the teacher is responsible for doing teh IEP's for kids). She interned with a kid that had asburgers, and it just stuck with her since as she likes helping them. But she does feel bad though as many of them cannot keep up in a classroom envirment as they are so hiper sensitive to the enviroment. They are not challenged as far as doing the work, but they are challenged largely by there social skills(although she has had to deal with kids who just couldn't do the work, and they would get passed as the schools don't get money unless they pass them). As for discipline in the classroom, schools are now penalized(at least down here) for giving a kid a refferral and sending them to the office, so many times the office will tear up the refferral and over ride teh teacher as they don't want it on record just how many kids have discipline problems.

It would seem that every area is differrent, but as a whole our liberal agenda driven views of PC and one society is dividing us in my opinion.

 

[randlemanboater]

My wife has been teaching for almost 20 years and is a Nationally Certified Teacher, she doesn't make NJ starting pay.

But we don't have to live in NJ either...no offense to you NJ boiz.

 

[lumberslinger178]

Anothe good question is why do teachers in NJ start off at $46-70K a year whereas most any other state starts off at 30-35K a year? I realize teh cost of living in Jersey is high, but alot of this I feel is brought on by the unions demanding higher pay for everybody(the whole trickle down economics).

As for the origanal discussion, I personally feel that political correctness is destroying our educational system. Since this post has started, I have questioned my wife a bit(without her knowing why) on some of the things she has to deal with as well as classroom size. I know this will come off mean and heartless to many, but why are we mainstreaming children who have actual severe learning disabilities? There are kids in her classes that can't hardly read, and will probably never be able to hold a job other than a bag boy at a grocery store. Yet these kids are in the mainstream population, so EVERY kid in the district must learn at the slowest kids rate. This in turn causes the entire state to slow down, and then rewrite the tests and how they do things so they can keep the numbers showing that the educational system is working. I know that this isn't the only issue by a long shot, and lazy parents of the nintendo generation are largely to blame for much of this as well(if the nintendo generation is this bad, imagine how bad the latest ones will be that don't socialize except for facebook).

There is much blame to go around, but I feel that alot of it can be blamed on political correctness and the whole liberal agenda.

Ferm the starting salary for teachers in our district is 34-36K other towns pay a lot more ...and the closer you get to the getto the higher that salary
.... It sounds like a high starting salary but its not.... I'm not living in the lap of luxury were living week to week.

 

[RidgeRunner]

Wilson,

Severely disabled children are sent to special schools here in FL as well. There are some students that should be considered severely disabled but are not and some that are seriously disabled that make it through with a lot of special assistance. I know some of these children personally and their parents jump the moon to make sure their child maintains at least the minimum standards so they can continue in their grade or a grade level behind. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
An example of what I meant when I said the teachers teach to the least advanced child. Assume -The first FCAT is given to 3rd graders at the end of the school year. At the beginning of the year the Third Grade teacher has 22 children and 2 are new to the school and appear to be six months behind the rest of the students in the class.(It happens every year as Florida has a large population of migrant workers, military, influx of tourist etc.) Even if none of the students were considered special needs and the two new students were fast learners the teacher has a dilemma. Passing percentiles on the FCAT will ultimately determine the teachers pay and or their job. If they want to remain a teacher, it seems like they would adapt their lesson plan to ensure the best outcome. That is what I would do and that is what they are instructed to do.
My cousin is a teacher in FL, she has her Masters and probably makes $40K a year, she works at Fruitland Park with the seriously disabled. Even though Florida requires the passing of the FCAT in order to get a diploma the school system evaluates each case and pass them through the system when it doesn't make sense to keep them in the system any longer. Sometimes children are mainstreamed because it is about development of social skills and maturation that comes with the school regiment. Even though they will be grossly unprepared, they mingle amoungst us every day. They dropped the cirriculum a while back but I do recall when public school used to teach some life lessons and even some trades. home economics, wood shop, auto shop. They need to throw in a class on Child care. Nope, they just want you passing the FCAT.

 

[Destroyer]

They dropped the cirriculum a while back but I do recall when public school used to teach some life lessons and even some trades. home economics, wood shop, auto shop. They need to throw in a class on Child care. Nope, they just want you passing the FCAT.

My first son was a product of that type of class. He has a reading disability, and it makes it hard for him to comprehend the written word. He can read something over and over and just not understand it, but show him something once or twice and he locks onto it like a Terrier. Anyways, because of this the schools in Toms River had him in a program where he went to school for the morning, and in the afternoon he worked in a trade (HVAC) as an apprentance. By the time he graduated high school he was well on his way towards aquiring his blue seal refrigeration license. He lives in Az now, is 43, owns his own HVAC company and employs 12 people. (And yes, I'm very proud of him) Point being that the system worked well back then (mid 80's) So what happened? how did we get so far down this very bleak road? And how do we get back

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

My first son was a product of that type of class. He has a reading disability, and it makes it hard for him to comprehend the written word. He can read something over and over and just not understand it, but show him something once or twice and he locks onto it like a Terrier. Anyways, because of this the schools in Toms River had him in a program where he went to school for the morning, and in the afternoon he worked in a trade (HVAC) as an apprentance. By the time he graduated high school he was well on his way towards aquiring his blue seal refrigeration license. He lives in Az now, is 43, owns his own HVAC company and employs 12 people. (And yes, I'm very proud of him) Point being that the system worked well back then (mid 80's) So what happened? how did we get so far down this very bleak road? And how do we get back

As you pointed it out, he had issues that the school recognized and educated him for something he could do. Now all they care about is to get the test scores for the money, so the kids aren't being thought of as people who need educating but as a paycheck and they're each a dollar sign now.

 

[RidgeRunner]

Big thumbs up on trade schools and On the Job Training programs. I participated in the same program in high school. Even served a term as President of our Diversified Cooperative Training Program in my senior year. That is as close to politics as I ever want to get. Taught me the ins and outs of parliamentary procedure and how bogged down the process can get.
With education there are so many variables it would be damn difficult to find any one part that couldn't use some tweaking. The student has to be motivated and want to learn. Until they get to that point by coersion of parents, teacher, or self motivated, they are going to be difficult to teach. I have always had it easy and I was somewhat rebellious in high school. I didn't want to be there. I wanted to party and make money. I was a slacker in school, did very little homework and managed to pull B's and C's. I have some regret for not applying myself better in school. What a waste of time, the teachers, fellow students, taxpayers, not to mention my parents money in college. I started to see the light in my sophomore year (third year) and actually learned how to study. (I took Engineering Calculus three times before I finally gave up my career as a engineer.) I took extra classes and worked hard. Ended up with a double major in business school at USF. So Wilson, I was a case where the teacher had to teach to a lesser standard.

Kudos to you Destroyer and son. That is a great outcome right there.

On the Classic Seacraft site there is a guy with a sig line that says,
"If you done it, it aint bragging."

 

[spareparts]

how ironic

http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-official-10-states-ed-waiver-110202341.html

 

[RWilson2526]

Big thumbs up on trade schools and On the Job Training programs. I participated in the same program in high school. Even served a term as President of our Diversified Cooperative Training Program in my senior year. That is as close to politics as I ever want to get. Taught me the ins and outs of parliamentary procedure and how bogged down the process can get.
With education there are so many variables it would be damn difficult to find any one part that couldn't use some tweaking. The student has to be motivated and want to learn. Until they get to that point by coersion of parents, teacher, or self motivated, they are going to be difficult to teach. I have always had it easy and I was somewhat rebellious in high school. I didn't want to be there. I wanted to party and make money. I was a slacker in school, did very little homework and managed to pull B's and C's. I have some regret for not applying myself better in school. What a waste of time, the teachers, fellow students, taxpayers, not to mention my parents money in college. I started to see the light in my sophomore year (third year) and actually learned how to study. (I took Engineering Calculus three times before I finally gave up my career as a engineer.) I took extra classes and worked hard. Ended up with a double major in business school at USF. So Wilson, I was a case where the teacher had to teach to a lesser standard.

:

I saw your point on your first post but I dont see the connection on this post...My response about school districts teaching to the slowest kid was in response to Ferm's statement which is what I didnt agree with.

"Yet these kids are in the mainstream population, so EVERY kid in the district must learn at the slowest kids rate"

 

[RidgeRunner]

I held back my fellow students with my attitude toward learning. It wasn't my parents fault that I was uninterested in towing the line. Not exactly a special needs student but I tend to agree more with Ferm. If you can't leave the student behind and you have students that are behind in learning then you must bring them up to proficiency.