Considering buying a V20

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peiserma

Member
Hello everyone. I've been reading this forum for a while, and decided to join because I have a question.

I went to look at a 1987 Wellcraft V20 cuddy-cabin with a 2000 Optimax 225 HP today. I have looked at several other used boats, but didn't seriously consider buying any of the others.

The hull is in decent shape, other than a few gelcoat cracks. They seem to be mostly cosmetic. Transom appears/feels solid. The back-to-back seats on the port side need replaced. Captains chair is rough looking but functional. Trailer is serviceable, but will probably need new springs before too long.

The owner says he hasn't used it in 2 years, but that the motor ran the last time he used it. He did not do any winterizing. I just did a compression test, and the numbers are much lower than the repair manual says. Looking at the engine from the rear, the numbers are:

65 70
95 75
65 60

So the top left is 65 psi, the top right is 70. But I do not know what these numbers mean, especially for a motor that has been sitting for two years. Could it be that the rings just need some lubrication to seal properly? Other than tearing it down to remove the pistons, is there something that could be done as a further check?

There is another motor (same motor, but counter-rotating) with a cracked block available from the seller. Its for spare parts, obviously.

The asking price is 3K. Is it worth pursing this further and negotiating on price, or walk away? I'm pretty good with a wrench and instructions, but I fully realize this is not an easy DIY job. I did some minor engine work on my Firebird plus some major suspension work. It ended up taking 8 months before I drove that car again - but now I do own an engine hoist and a welder :) The point is that I have some DIY repair experience as opposed to never having turned a wrench in my life.

Anyway, your thoughts and feedback are appreciated.


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Hi and welcome to the site. There are a number of really good guys here that can advise you on the engine etc. But from my own experience and reading the manual for my engine, the engines compression should be checked with the engine warm and all plugs removed. I'm thinking that if it sat for any length of time it probably needs to be run a little before you can get an accurate compression test. It's entirely possible/probable that you have stuck rings from the sitting. :head:
 
Thanks Destroyer. I'm wondering the same thing - the readings may not mean a whole lot. I would guess that any lubrication on the piston rings is long gone by now, and with that there is not a good seal. There's likely a coating of rust on the walls, too. But I have no real experience in this area.

If I could, I would drain all the fluids and the gas (two year old gas is still in the tank) Then I would get some lubricant and squirt it down the spark-plug holes and turn the engine over a few times to work the lubricant in there. But since its not mine, I can't really do that. And if I did (or the seller did), would the new compression numbers be useful, or would they give me a false sense of security?
 
Was able to a few articles on this motor. For what I know about these motors it' a hit or mis kind of deal with the 200's and 225's..But lower compression after a motor has been sitting awhile is some what the norm but you should put about a teaspoon of oil in each cylinder and turn the motor over a few times then see if she will fire of course hook up the water hose.Let it run for 15 minutes shut it down then test ,Test again after it cools down as well..Let us know what the readings are...Good Luck


According to an article in the November issue of Motorboating, page 22 Mercury OptiMax 3-liter outboards (200 and 225-hp) are being recalled in an effort to stop plug fouling that occurs when trolling. Reasons cited were small variations in tolerance among spark plugs, thermostats and the ECM. A service advisory has been advised to replace the thermostat, fuel rail and reprogram the ECM. rob

10/12/01 2:36:00 PM Ancient Mariner (204.2.54.49) from TEXAS says Opti's
They had a fuel injector problem due to a supplier not following specs. Blown powerheads. Know a man who got the retrofit. His sister is a Bass guide and tournament fisherwoman and sponsored by Mercury and she experienced a blown powerhead. He had run his about 2 or 3 hours when she called him and told him not to even start the motor until he had the replacement parts. He did this and now has a whole bunch of trouble-free hours. Ron Gehrke at Cy-Fair Marine near Houston handled it for her. Hope this info helps. Only the big blocks were affected. I have a 150 and its fine. Tom
Incidentally, he replaced a Yamaha 225 and described the new motor as "powerful", "awesome" and, "doesn't burn any gas".

10/12/01 11:38:00 PM Nasty (47.234.0.51) from NORTH CAROLINA says 2001 Opti's
My 2001 225 opti's were recalled. They installed a new fuel rail, injectors and ecm. Merc said the had problems with about 800 of the 10,000 sold, but they are doing the recall on all of the 2001. The 1999-2000 did not have the problem. Merc is giving me an additional 2 yrs on the warrenty from the date of the retrofit. BTW the installed new plugs, 12 of them. The Bosch plugs are not cheep.

10/15/01 9:34:00 AM Sixer (155.91.6.71) from NEW JERSEY says My understanding....
is the problems were with the 2000 and up 200 and 225's using the digital systems. Earlier engines were not affected by this recall.

If you can take the boat to a shop and have them plug it in to see the real hours and max rpm's would be your safest bet. If all checks out 3000 not that bad....
 
If you are really interested in buying it and the seller is interested in selling it he might let you mess with it to get the compression numbers up. Tell him the numbers seem goofy and why you think they are like that and the way it stands now you arent going to buy it unless you can see if the engine is servicable. Bring a portable gas tank for the gas issue and start working on it. Then again the seller might not want to know if the engine is shot so he can sell it to the next guy with a clear conscience but its worth asking I think.
 
Be very concern with those numbers, low compression on an engine is no good and should be carefully look at , Please factor in a re-build cost for the engine before you make an offer ...
 
Thank you all very much for the advice and feedback. Especially to Macrenovations for taking the time to look up all that info.

After the compression test, the seller indicated I could come back and check the engine some more. I admitted that I wasn't sure what low compression numbers mean on an engine that has been idle for so long. I have the following plan, assuming the seller is OK with everything: get some new spark plugs. Not cheap, but worth the money to see if I can get the motor to run. Work some oil into the cylinders through the spark plug holes. Change motor oil in order to look at the oil fill plug (for shavings) and see if its oil or sludge in there. I like the suggestion of a portable gas tank. That way I do not have to mess with draining the old gas, and I can throw in a $5 bottle of fuel injector cleaner (the outboard is fuel injected). Oh, and I should probably drain the lower unit to make sure it has no water in it.

What else would you suggest? Assuming the engine ran two years ago and has no major problems, can I reasonably expect that I can get the engine running with the steps outlined above?

I'm not sure about a couple things. First, I assume its possible to hook up a garden hose to cool the engine? Is there a FAQ (with illustrations if possible) on this?

Second, is it possible to run this motor on a portable tank? That outboard is pretty big and, like automobile fuel-injected motors, is going to need a fuel pump. Is the fuel pump external to the tank? What size hose do I need?

And finally, can the motor be turned over by hand, to work the oil into the cylinders? How would one go about doing this? Is there a service manual for the Optimax available on-line?

Thanks so much the help so far.
 
Just talked to the seller. He's OK with what I want to do. He is even getting a portable gas tank from a friend. Fuel pump is on the motor, so that question is answered. Still looking for advice on the other questions.

Thanks.
 
Hi, welcome to the site. Make sure they have or you bring a well charged battery. Does he have a set of "muffs" for using the garden hose? Also, if you put oil in the cylinders, I wouldn't put the new plugs in until that oil has been blown out...
 
Dont forget too that if he is premixing the oil in his fuel tank that you add some oil to the portable tank. If he is using on board oil tank than no worries.
 
peiserma said:
I have the following plan, assuming the seller is OK with everything: get some new spark plugs. Work some oil into the cylinders through the spark plug holes.

Good idea..

Change motor oil in order to look at the oil fill plug (for shavings) and see if its oil or sludge in there.

This is a 2 stroke engine...yes? If so there is no engine oil to change, other than the oil that's in the tanks ready to be pumped into the engine while the engine is running.. If he's running pre-mix than the portable tank will need to have the proper amount of 2 stroke oil mixed into it before you try to run the engine.

I like the suggestion of a portable gas tank. That way I do not have to mess with draining the old gas, and I can throw in a $5 bottle of fuel injector cleaner (the outboard is fuel injected).

Use Mercury injector cleaner. And I'd also highly recommend treating the fuel with Seafoam.

Oh, and I should probably drain the lower unit to make sure it has no water in it.

Absolutely a great idea... Look for metal shavings of any kind, as well as milky or cloudy oil.

What else would you suggest? Assuming the engine ran two years ago and has no major problems, can I reasonably expect that I can get the engine running with the steps outlined above?

Yes, however some things to keep in mind. Optimax engines require a marine starting battery with a mininum of 1000 Marine Cranking Amps. They are very power hungry while cranking because of the air and fuel injectors. And, while running, because of their huge power requirements, they don't start charging your battery(s) until about 2500 rpm. Below that they are drawing some power from the battery. Additionally, be sure that, when in neutral, the throttle cable is adjusted so that is holding the throttle arm up against the idle stop. The engine's computer is looking for a specific value from the throttle position sensor...and if the cable is not adjusted correctly this will trip an error code. (DON'T USE THE WARM UP LEVER OR THROTTLE ONLY FEATURE OF YOUR CONTROLS DURING STARTING).

I'm not sure about a couple things. First, I assume its possible to hook up a garden hose to cool the engine? Is there a FAQ (with illustrations if possible) on this?

Yes, use what are called engine muffs or mouse ears. Basically rubber disks that clamp around the bottom around the engine's water pick up holes and are attached to a garden hose. NEVER run an engine without water. You will destroy the rubber impeller inside your water pump in less than 10 seconds.

Second, is it possible to run this motor on a portable tank?

Yes.. in fact for your tests it's recommended so you can rule out possible old or bad fuel.

And finally, can the motor be turned over by hand, to work the oil into the cylinders? How would one go about doing this? Is there a service manual for the Optimax available on-line?
Click to expand...

Yes, just turn the flywheel. It will probably be impossible or really, really hard to do with the plugs in, and since you want to work the oil into the cylinders and rings, it's advisable to have them all out... but it's so much easier to just use your engines' starter.. squirt the oil in and hit the starter switch for a few seconds to turn the engine over... let it sit for a few minutes..then do it again... you're done. Oh, and as a general rule of thumb, unless a service manual calls for it, never turn an engine backwards.. you can break things that are only designed to move in one direction.


Probably not on the service manual. They like to sell these things to make money. Look for Seloc or Clymers, or a genuine service manual from Mercury online in eBay. Usually they go for around $30-$50.


Hope that answered your questions, with a few comments thrown in for good measure. Red skys at night....:beer:
 
Thanks for that wealth of information. Armed with that knowledge, I went back today and did all that was suggested. The lower unit oil looked great for having sat in there for two years. Not a hint of water. Engine was run off a portable tank.

But we were unsuccessful in starting the engine. I broke the top off of one of the new spark plugs, so we went with 5 brand new ones and picked the best-looking one of the old plugs. The engine turned over fine. The starboard side fuel rail had pressure, but the port side fuel rail did not. This particular engine has pressure-relief valves on the rail (they look almost exactly like the ones on your tires. They are called Shrader valves if I remember correctly ). The starboard side squirted fuel when we vented it, but there was nothing at all on the port side. Not even a hiss. That's how I know one side has pressure, the other doesn't :)

Where we left it was that the seller said he was going to try to tinker with it. He also said he was open to offers if I wanted to mess with it myself. I got the impression he really does not want to mess with it. He was riding with his significant other (as in motorcycles) before I got there tonight, so I got the impression his priorities may be different than when he was actively boating. Also, he has three boats sitting in his yard right now, and a fourth in the water. This particular boat is probably not on his short list.

So once again, I ask for your collective wisdom. Is this worth pursuing, or is it better to wait for something else? If its worth pursuing, how much would be a fair ballpark figure? I realize no one can give an exact answer without inspecting the boat, but i'm really just looking for a general estimate based on your personal experience. FWIW, the hull is an 87 cuddy, no weakspots that I found, solid transom (i put my full weight on the motor and made the boat bounce on the trailer). The back-to-back chairs on port side are shot and need replacing. Woodwork (I guess I have to get in the habit of calling it brightwork?) can be mostly reconditioned, but some of it will have to be rebuilt (I already have a table saw and a router and know how to use them). There are some minor dings and scratches in the gelcoat as one would expect, but it still looks pretty good. Oh, and recall that the seller has a the same engine, just counter-rotating, with a cracked block that could be used for spare parts if it were made part of any deal.

I have been looking for a used boat on and off for maybe 1.5 years, and I really like the V20s in general. More so than 90% of the other boats for sale out there. I do not have to own a boat right now (I can wait), but I surely miss being out on the water (used to sail my parents 30' Hunter before I moved too far away). Plus I have spare cash in my bank account right now (may not be true next year if my wife decides we need to redo the kitchen or replace the carpeting with wood floors). I consider myself pretty good mechanically, and can afford spending time tinkering with the engine. I'd actually consider that time well spent.

So your thoughts and opinion is appreciated. At what price does this boat become a deal, and at what price can I find a better value for my hard-earned cash?

Thank you!
 
Brightwork is all of the metal that needs to be ploished.. like turnbuckles, stancions, etc.

At what part does it become a deal? When he gives you a price that you like and that you know you can afford, including any work that may have to be done on the engine. I know that's not the answer you want, but it's about as true as you can get. Truthfully, a boat without a working engine is just a useless hull. Like a supermodel... pretty to look at but not very practical. IMHO:head:
 
Did you make any progress on the compression numbers?

Offer him $1500 and hope its just a fuel issue or something under 1K to fix. You do have the possibility to get a sweet deal if the guy just wants to unload it and you can get it running because of something simple. It is a 2000 motor which is considerably newer then than 80's original motors many V's for sale have on them.

I would think even if WORST case and the motor is not servicable you should be able to part out the motor and get something back from that and then find a used motor and put it on. Definitely a pain in the neck to do but financially if you can get the boat for $1500 or so you liability is limited.

On the flip side what part of the country are you in? There's at least 10 v's for sale within 100 miles of me here in NJ. are there fewer to choose from where you are?
 
the only way i would buy the boat with the information you give is to do a sea trail. starting any motor sounds good but the performance of a boat under a load and running at all speeds is a different situation.:sun:
 
Well if the boat is solid I would still consider it, The motor is spinning so I am guessing there is nothing to serious wrong with it.
$1500 to $2000 would be fine and if need be there are a lot of older good motors out there for cheap money.

good luck
 
If your original comp numbers are true--the engine will spin just fine---But you will not get it to run--and if so--very ruff.

There is not enough compression there to light the fuel.

Figure at least a re-ring and hone job!!
 
Destroyer said:
At what part does it become a deal? When he gives you a price that you like and that you know you can afford, including any work that may have to be done on the engine.
Click to expand...

You're right, its not what I was hoping for, but it did cause me to think about what it's worth to me. By attempting to do it myself, I'm essentially trading my time for my money (e.g. paying someone else to fix the motor). I'm also gambling that the motor is fixable for X amount - the exact dollar value at which this makes sense is what I'm trying to figure out.

For example, someone on this site (Willy maybe?) was asking $4500 for his V20. I'll use that as a starting point - I assume that I can find something similar with a working motor for $4500. Now what's a good estimate for a decent used outboard? I would guess $3000 at least, based on some limited time spent internet surfing. Now the value of package is $1500. But that doesn't account for the time and hassle required to install the replacement motor. I see little fairness paying the same total amount (having to repower vs working motor) because of the time and effort I'd have to do in repowering. That ought to be worth something (as in reduced price). And the boat still needs the back-to-back chair replaced. That can be bought for maybe $250? Again, the time and effort to install needs to be accounted for. This boat has no electronics, either (unlike Willy's). The trailer does have cash value, but I'm not planning on entering the used-trailer business, either.

Back to the motor. My first post showed the middle cylinder on the port side with 95psi compression. All the others were much, much lower. Also recall that I said the port side wasn't getting any fuel, while the starboard was. So one could hope for at least half the cylinders firing. The motor turned over, but no cylinder ever fired. As Genie Aye pointed out, the compression is too low to ignite the fuel. And therefore, instead of it being a question just of re-lubricating the rings and getting it to start like I was hoping, its looking more likely that a major or complete teardown of the motor is required. And all of a sudden, having to throw $1000 to $2000 into the motor doesn't seem so far-fetched. Never mind the amount of effort involved...

Based on the above line of thinking, $2000 is too much, and $1500 is on the high end of what it's worth to me. Feel free to point out errors or flaws in my thinking, since I've never owned my own boat and may be misrepresenting or not fully comprehending some of the costs.
 
I am thinking you are nuts!!

A boat solid as a rock, with a trailer, and no motor is worth 1500 all day if its solid!!
add a good used motor for a grand you in water for $2500, not many can say that, take a good hard look at it again, and if as solid as you say, then start low and see were he goes!

Good Luck!
 
Peiserma...my comment about when does a deal become a deal was simply in answer to your question. Only you can determine the point at which it happens, because only you know your capabilities and your finances. It was neither a negative or a positive answer.

If, as you say, the boat is in good condition and he has a spare parts engine available then I'd be tempted to make him an offer, based on what I thought I could afford and what I was willing to do in order to fix whatever is wrong with the good engine. Only you can make that decision.

For me, since I'm a wrench turner from way back, I'd offer him up to 2.5
grand for the package, including both engines. Now understand, that's just me and I'm not you, so I'm not telling you what the value is or anything. I'm simply telling you what I would do if I were in the same situation.
 
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