To foam or not to foam..that is the question..

Phat, that is exactly what I have in mind... Great to see it actually done.... nice job!!!!

Spare, what you say about the noodles makes a lot of sense. I'm still torn between using them and foaming... one the one hand I get 2.5 lbs per sq ft of added weight, sound deadening and some additional structurial integrity. On the other hand I get lighter weight, good water drainage and cheaper cost..... To foam or not to foam still remains the question.
 
Foam that baby, so when the stringers rot to he// you will at least have another foam boat like many on the market today.

IIRC, CaptPete insulated that area under the floor and uses it as a cooler. I used that space on my center by adding in a hatch and fiberglassing in a false floor. Not easy to get to on mine, the edge of the cooler seat is resting on the edge of the hatch. I shoulda planned better.
 
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Destroyer, Thank you for posting the pictures. I also have a V21, but I have no reason to believe I have any problems, yet. Nice to see what it looks like under there.
 
buckleyjr said:
Destroyer, Thank you for posting the pictures. I also have a V21, but I have no reason to believe I have any problems, yet. Nice to see what it looks like under there.
Click to expand...
You're most welcome...More will be posted as the next steps are completed...here's a couple more that I managed to get outta my camera...

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Spare, you've convinced me.. noodles it is...the difference between the foam in place and using pool noodles is not great as far as floatation goes, but I like the idea of having each chamber able to drain into the bilge and get pumped overboard... that's a mighty big benefit....less weight, better fuel economy, better riding boat, dry bilge and foam, etc,...

So far the best price I've found for solid 2 3/4' noodles is $62.95 for 20. Since each noodle can support 200lbs that means that a box of 20 can support up to 4000lbs. I'm going to try and get at least 2 boxes (8000lbs of floatation) crammed into all the nooks and crannys.

As an aside, Stinky mentioned that he's always believed that a boat names itself as it is being rebuilt...that the name just comes to you...
There may be some merit to that. I think that I might name her..... "Noodles" :love:
 
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if you can hold off till after labor day, 3 for a dollar. my only concern about using them is when we leave them in the deck hold for a week or two, they get pretty mildewey(Is that a word?).
 
I believe you need to check your math. Try hooking 5 noodles to your motor and tossing it in the water and tell me what will happen. That 200 pounds is based on the difference of the weight of water and the weight of a person for the same volume of water. In reality, you are probably only looking at 15 pounds of buoncy (sp?) per noodle.
 
tartuffe said:
I believe you need to check your math. Try hooking 5 noodles to your motor and tossing it in the water and tell me what will happen. That 200 pounds is based on the difference of the weight of water and the weight of a person for the same volume of water. In reality, you are probably only looking at 15 pounds of buoncy (sp?) per noodle.
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Hmmmm...how to answer this?.... Ok, lets try this.. You have a 12 lb rock, and you lower it into water on a string and find it weighs 8 lbs. (roughly a 33% reduction in weight) Now you take a 4 lb block of lead and lower in into the same water and you find that it weighs 3.64 lbs (roughly a 9% reduction of weight) Why the difference? Lets look at the math.
4 lbs of lead X .4536kg/lb = 1.814kg x 1000g/kg=1814.4g. This is weight of the lead. So the density of lead is 11.3437g/cc
What is the volume of the 4lbs of lead? 1814.4g /11.3437 = 159.94 cc (That's the volume of water that the lead displaces.)
How much does this water weigh? It varies..the density of ocean water is 1.027 g/cc (fresh water is 1.0 g/cc) so 159.94cc ocean water X 1.027 g = 164.26g (That's the amount of positive buoyancy applied to the lead when it is submerged.)
Now, converting back to lbs, 164.26g = .16426kg /.4536 (kg/lb) = .3621 lbs
So the weight of the submerged lead is (4 - .3621) = 3.64lbs
The reason for the difference is the density of the two objects. Lead is much denser and so it displaces less water and is less buoyant than the rock. So too, the noodle will support an average 200 lb person in much the same way that a life jacket filled with foam will, because the human body is much less dense (and so has more positive buoyancy) than an outboard engine or a fiberglass boat. As to boats, a cubic foot of polyurethane (closed cell foam)will float about 60 pounds of "dead weight". The wood parts of a boat will probably float, as well as the gas tank(s), so you don't need flotation foam to offset that weight. The fiberglass parts of a boat will barely sink, so you really don't need much foam to offset the fiberglass- maybe one cubic foot of foam per two hundred pounds (or more) of fiberglass hull. The metal parts of the boat are what you really need to account for. A small (4-6hp) outboard may weigh 45-55 pounds. A 50hp outboard will weigh about 200 pounds. So a 16 foot fiberglass skiff with a 50 horse outboard will need about six cubic feet of urethane foam to keep it afloat. A 12 foot plastic kayak will only need about one cubic foot. Conversly, a 30 foot fiberglass sailing sloop with a diesel engine and lead keel would need about 150 cubic feet of foam. (Actually, very few 30 foot keelboats have positive foam flotation, but it's not out of the question, especially when you consider all of the air pockets that would exist, as well as all of the wood interior components that provide some positive flotation). As far as our V20's and V21's go, I really don't know exactly how much foam it will need in terms of cubic feet. But I figure that Wellcraft's engineers did know when they started adding foam into the boats. By law they had to put enough foam in place to support the boat, gear and engine. So I intend to mimic the amount they used as closely as possible in the compartments, and then add additional foam in the gunnels and other places to make up for any loss due to voids between the noodles. But as far as the original statement goes, 2 boxes (40 pcs) of noodles should support 8000 lbs of human density weight, since each noodle is rated for 200 lbs of floatation. (200 lbs x 40pcs = 8000lbs). I'm fully aware of the differences of density vs volume. Maybe I should have made it a little clearer but hopefully you understand what I meant in my original statement a little better now. :beer:
 
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tartuffe said:
I believe you need to check your math. Try hooking 5 noodles to your motor and tossing it in the water and tell me what will happen. That 200 pounds is based on the difference of the weight of water and the weight of a person for the same volume of water. In reality, you are probably only looking at 15 pounds of buoncy (sp?) per noodle.
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I came up with 12.8 lbs based on the assumption that the noodle is solid 2 3/4" diameter x 5'long AND that seawater that the noodles will displace if submerged weights in at 64 lb/cu ft. I was going to post how he//a strong I must be when I can submerge one while swimming with my arm fully extended. LOL I know it will work, just funny math.
Destroyer, Ever consider making some limber holes to allow the water to drain from all compartments?
 
RidgeRunner said:
I came up with 12.8 lbs based on the assumption that the noodle is solid 2 3/4" diameter x 5'long AND that seawater that the noodles will displace if submerged weights in at 64 lb/cu ft. I was going to post how he//a strong I must be when I can submerge one while swimming with my arm fully extended. LOL I know it will work, just funny math.
Destroyer, Ever consider making some limber holes to allow the water to drain from all compartments?
Click to expand...

It is, indeed, funny math. You have to conceptualize that water is buoyant and is actually pushing up on the foam. I think it's Newtons 2nd law that gives us the equations.. I'll have to look it up.

In all cases, Spareparts made the comment that he:
spareparts said:
put drain holes in each compartment that feeds to the bilge. if you get water in an area, it will drain to the bilge and not puddle in any compartment.
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I liked the idea so much that in one of my followup posts I said that
destroyer said:
I like the idea of having each chamber able to drain into the bilge and get pumped overboard...
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Truthfully I never knew they were called limber holes, but your idea is sound and exactly what I was planning to do. I plan on drilling 3/4" holes at the very bottom of each compartment and then cementing PVC pipe into the holes to make drains into the bilge area. If anyone has a reason to use a different size for the pipe I'd be greatful if they would tell me.
 
WOW!! you guy are thinking way to much!! I had a 1974 V20 cuddy with a gill bracket on back with a 175 rude on there, we got hit by a 10 foot wave that filled the boat to the gunnles!! The boat never went any deeper then the gunnles that day!! it was a rough water day, and after 1 guy drove slow the other (me) bailed the water out till it was down to the floor, we made it home.
1974 had NO foam or anything! So I would not worry about all this noodle crap, get her done and go fishing!!
 
Gotcha Destroyer. You and I are on the same page. I'm going through the foam chronicles myself which is what drew me to your thread.

I'm kinda new around here so I'll just :zip:it.
 
Foaming complete.. after thinking about it and everything I just decided it was easier to foam, make it all watertight and (like MJ said) go fishing. Made a few improvements though... Foamed it completely up to the bottom of the deck , and, as shown in the last pic (sorry its a little dark) in the transom area we glassed from the splashwell to the transom to add a little extra strength to that area. (There's a gap of about an inch and a half on both sides of the splashwell that we filled with putty and then glassed over). Don't know why Wellcraft didn't do that when they made the boats... just seems like common sense. Oh well.....

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Moving right along.... Next I have to add the hatch in the front area as previously discussed, get new rod boxes for the sides and install them and then start mounting things like the bimini, radar arch, antennas, engine, etc.
 
:clap:...I'll hand it to ya, Destroyer!!...that's a lotta nice work you've done there...and in a relatively short period of time...yer gonna have a mighty tight V there when you get done!!...:clap:
 
Thanks Reel. The deck is far from complete yet. Still gotta put down the equivilant of Rhino liner on it to hide the cut marks and some minor miscalculations on the cuts....[oops]. (I can actually have it done in REEL Rhino liner, in white, but the cost is just prohibitave.. almost $800)... so I'm going to do it myself. Biggest problem with that is choosing the right one. Just a quick glance on eBay revealed at least a dozen different brands... Hippoliner, Raptor, Bondo, Monstaliner, Duplicolor, LinerXtreeme, etc. all claiming to be the best and most durable... And then you get into the application process... to spray or to roll...etc. But we're making headway, and eventually we'll get er' done. I want her all finished in time for the annual get together at Tices, so I have to get my a$$ in gear.. but it's springtime and there's a ton of work to do around the house also...including painting the house itself... <sigh> just never enough time... :head:
 
I was going too use bed liner when i did mine, but the $$$ is also what stopped me
I used Duraback paint and it was great! there are a few here that have also used it with good results, but a few say if you get the texture paint one its a bit tuff on bare feet.

Skools did a complete rebuild of a boat a few years back and did a awesome job, he used a different paint that he rolled on. you can see the thread here, its 38 pages long and all nice reading, but floor stars on page 30

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/community/showthread.php?t=5461&highlight=floor+paint&page=30

here are a few pics from my v20 when i did it.

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I used durabak on my 14 McKee. I'll say this about it, make sure you put it where you want it, because once its cured, it ain't coming off. You are not going to slip on it, but if you do, its going to take meat with it. I'll spare you the details, but if they send you durabak and it comes with extra paint to tint it with, call them and ***** at them till they give you the color you ordered. When you make your initial order, they usually give you a few rollers(3" is all you need, skip the 6"), get as many as you can as they aren't cheap when you reorder more. They usually get you on shipping, so try to get all you need at one time. All that being said, its tough paint. The only complaint I have about the paint is that it does show dirt, and is a paint to clean (pressure washer)
 
MJ, you're right, that floor that Skools did really looks great. Ditto with your V. (Shame she's gone) :( Great pics of both boats!!

Spare, I understand the meat gone with a skid... took a little off my knee last year on a Rhino lined pick up truck bed. Who would have thought rubber could be so hard. Thanks for the advise on the get many rollers comment. I don't mind using a pressure washer... so the cleanup shouldn't be a problem. Does Durabak come in white? That's really my only major criteria. Question...how much Durabak does it take to do a deck? :head:
 
Comes in a bunch of covers, I got the gray and its not hot at all. I did mine 2 coats with 1 gal with texture, and it just made it. But i had 2 floor covers in my deck that did not get painted

They now boost that its a bed liner also, says 1 gal will do a 6 ft truck bed.

http://durabakcompany.com/
 
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